Gay marriage and abortions

Atresac wrote:

the21gamer wrote:

Atresac wrote:

the21gamer wrote:

Atresac wrote:

the21gamer wrote:

ramunematt wrote:

Brain wrote:

ramunematt wrote:

Brain wrote:

ramunematt wrote:

Brain wrote:

ramunematt wrote:

Brain wrote:

ramunematt wrote:

Manchester Black wrote:

ramunematt wrote:
Those abortions could be used for stem cell research and actually save lives. You would be saving a lot more people than you would kill.

Even if this is true, abortion is still wrong. Would you have preferred your mother abort you for stem cell research?

ramunematt wrote:
Besides, the chance of an infant surviving past 5 years of age or even birth aren’t as high as they used to be.

There are also chances of them still surviving.

ramunematt wrote:
Besides, how do you know if Christianity is the way, or if there really is a God?

Simple, I was raised that way so I don’t use any other christianity.

ramunematt wrote:
You shouldn’t be debating this kind of thing with the guessing game.

Didn’t you kind of use the guessing game with the infants don’t survive past 5 years thing?

1. How do you know what is truely right and wrong? What you might think is morally wrong might be morally right for other people

2. Even if they survive, it might of not been as helpful as if they were used for stem cell research. Stem cell research could someday provide cures for diseases that people all around the world are suffering from. What if a baby who was not aborted turned out to have that disease or turned out to have a horrible life?

3. It would be great if you could elaborate more on that

4. No I didn’t use the guessing game because it’s a fact that everyday 30,000 children die before reaching age 5 http://www.childinfo.org/areas/childmortality/

Can we really judge at birth if a person may have a “horrible” life? While different cultures may hold different moral beliefs, a common thread runs through all of them: Murder is wrong. Would you will to live in a world that allows for the murder of innocent people in order to medically aid the ill? What if that person chosen to die was yourself? When did humanity decide it may choose which members may live or die? Just something to think about...

There is one problem with that statement. Abortion is not murder. Murder is the taking of the life of another human being through the initiation of physical force. Abortion is not murder, because a fetus is not a human being — it is a potential human being, i.e. it is part of the woman. The concept murder only applies to the initiation of physical force used to destroy an actual human being.

You seem to be confusing murder with the term “homicide”. Regardless, a fetus is going to become a human being and does display charactertistics that verify it being “alive” (heartbeat, movement, required sustinence). Thus, ending its life would be murder. The fact that a fetus has not become an “actual” human being does not make it any more or less human. You are alive today due to the fact that your mother made a conscious choice not to murder you. Be thankful.

Homicide and murder are basically the same thing. The only difference is that murder has different degrees where as homicide only has one. And although a fetus is a potential human being, it isn’t a full human being. There is a difference between a fetus and an actual human being. A fetus is basically human tissue that is being developed into a human being, not not officially a human being until it’s born. Until it is born it is part of the womb.

Oh really, a part of the womb that can move, has its own heart and internal organs, and can process information? A human being is created at conception; for some reason people today believe that life instantly begins when a baby leaves a woman’s body.

As I said before, I never said that life doesn’t begin until something is born. a Fetus can be complex, but that doesn’t automatically make it a human being. It has to be born first. A human being isn’t created at conception, a fetus is.

A baby is just a fully developed fetus; they are one in the same. There is no difference. Leaving the womb doesn’t transform a fetus into a human. Also, a zygote is formed at conception which then forms into a blastocyst through meiosis.

A baby isn’t a fetus, it’s a human being because it is no longer being developed and is no longer part of the womb.

A baby is still being developed. Their brains are not fully developed in the 1st years of their lives.

I disagree. My baby sister could name everyone in KISS, and what they played, as well as other bands, before she was 2.

That does not show proof that her brain was fully developed.

she could identify the members, what they played, and remembered their names. She was aware of things. She knew when I was coming over and who I was. I’d say she was pretty developed.

If she was 'fully developed' as you claim then she would be an idiot. There is more than just identifying.

Ok, then your brain isn’t fully developed either since you do not know everything in the world.

You didn’t get it. A baby does NOT understand the basics of being human when they are born and their brain is still young like mush. The baby comes because it can without being harmed and no longer needs to be inside. The brain on the other hand still needs time to develop.

Atresac wrote:

the21gamer wrote:

Atresac wrote:

the21gamer wrote:

Atresac wrote:

the21gamer wrote:

ramunematt wrote:

Brain wrote:

ramunematt wrote:

Brain wrote:

ramunematt wrote:

Brain wrote:

ramunematt wrote:

Brain wrote:

ramunematt wrote:

Manchester Black wrote:

ramunematt wrote:
Those abortions could be used for stem cell research and actually save lives. You would be saving a lot more people than you would kill.

Even if this is true, abortion is still wrong. Would you have preferred your mother abort you for stem cell research?

ramunematt wrote:
Besides, the chance of an infant surviving past 5 years of age or even birth aren’t as high as they used to be.

There are also chances of them still surviving.

ramunematt wrote:
Besides, how do you know if Christianity is the way, or if there really is a God?

Simple, I was raised that way so I don’t use any other christianity.

ramunematt wrote:
You shouldn’t be debating this kind of thing with the guessing game.

Didn’t you kind of use the guessing game with the infants don’t survive past 5 years thing?

1. How do you know what is truely right and wrong? What you might think is morally wrong might be morally right for other people

2. Even if they survive, it might of not been as helpful as if they were used for stem cell research. Stem cell research could someday provide cures for diseases that people all around the world are suffering from. What if a baby who was not aborted turned out to have that disease or turned out to have a horrible life?

3. It would be great if you could elaborate more on that

4. No I didn’t use the guessing game because it’s a fact that everyday 30,000 children die before reaching age 5 http://www.childinfo.org/areas/childmortality/

Can we really judge at birth if a person may have a “horrible” life? While different cultures may hold different moral beliefs, a common thread runs through all of them: Murder is wrong. Would you will to live in a world that allows for the murder of innocent people in order to medically aid the ill? What if that person chosen to die was yourself? When did humanity decide it may choose which members may live or die? Just something to think about...

There is one problem with that statement. Abortion is not murder. Murder is the taking of the life of another human being through the initiation of physical force. Abortion is not murder, because a fetus is not a human being — it is a potential human being, i.e. it is part of the woman. The concept murder only applies to the initiation of physical force used to destroy an actual human being.

You seem to be confusing murder with the term “homicide”. Regardless, a fetus is going to become a human being and does display charactertistics that verify it being “alive” (heartbeat, movement, required sustinence). Thus, ending its life would be murder. The fact that a fetus has not become an “actual” human being does not make it any more or less human. You are alive today due to the fact that your mother made a conscious choice not to murder you. Be thankful.

Homicide and murder are basically the same thing. The only difference is that murder has different degrees where as homicide only has one. And although a fetus is a potential human being, it isn’t a full human being. There is a difference between a fetus and an actual human being. A fetus is basically human tissue that is being developed into a human being, not not officially a human being until it’s born. Until it is born it is part of the womb.

Oh really, a part of the womb that can move, has its own heart and internal organs, and can process information? A human being is created at conception; for some reason people today believe that life instantly begins when a baby leaves a woman’s body.

As I said before, I never said that life doesn’t begin until something is born. a Fetus can be complex, but that doesn’t automatically make it a human being. It has to be born first. A human being isn’t created at conception, a fetus is.

A baby is just a fully developed fetus; they are one in the same. There is no difference. Leaving the womb doesn’t transform a fetus into a human. Also, a zygote is formed at conception which then forms into a blastocyst through meiosis.

A baby isn’t a fetus, it’s a human being because it is no longer being developed and is no longer part of the womb.

A baby is still being developed. Their brains are not fully developed in the 1st years of their lives.

I disagree. My baby sister could name everyone in KISS, and what they played, as well as other bands, before she was 2.

That does not show proof that her brain was fully developed.

she could identify the members, what they played, and remembered their names. She was aware of things. She knew when I was coming over and who I was. I’d say she was pretty developed.

If she was 'fully developed' as you claim then she would be an idiot. There is more than just identifying.

Ok, then your brain isn’t fully developed either since you do not know everything in the world.

The point is your sister was not fully developed into a rational human being that can utilize all of its higher brain functions. The process of human development does not end at birth

Brain wrote:

ramunematt wrote:

Brain wrote:

ramunematt wrote:

Brain wrote:

ramunematt wrote:

Brain wrote:

ramunematt wrote: mur·der /ˈmɜrdər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mur-der] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).

Murder is only possible with a human being killing another human being. You can’t murder an animal, and you can’t murder a fetus.

How is abortion NOT killing another human being? Is it because it hasn’t come out of a woman’s womb? Being born doesn’t mean that life begins at that point. Life begins at the inception of child.

Yes, killing. That would be the correct term. I never said that being born is the time where life begins. But being born is the time where you are an official human being. By your logic I could say a sperm is a human being.

No, by my logic you could say that a sperm and egg cell that have joined together in order to create a living, experiencing form of life is a human being. What is an “official” human being? One which had the luck of being able to escape his/her mother’s womb before they were aborted? Is that “official” enough?

An official human being is fully developed and born out of it’s birth mother. I don’t know why you can’t see that. I am not the only one who thinks a fetus isn’t a human being.

AROUND THE NATION;
MINNESOTA COURT RULES FETUS IS NOT A HUMAN

It’s an old article, but nontheless they ruled that a fetus is not a human. If you can, I would like you to find me an article that says a fets is a human being.

Minnesota claims that a fetus is not a human? So, that makes it right? I would hate to think you honor every piece of our country’s legislation as dogmatic. Does it occur to you that perhaps they are wrong? Does the fact that a fetus exits a woman’s womb suddenly transform it into a human being? Does some magical transformation take place that was absent from its nine months of development within the womb? The act of being born only signifies that the child is ready to begin life outside the womb, not life altogether. The fetus thinks, eats, moves, breathes, just like a newborn child. Why should its rights be any different?

fe·tus /ˈfitəs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fee-tuhs] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -tus·es. Embryology. (used chiefly of viviparous mammals) the young of an animal in the womb or egg, esp. in the later stages of development when the body structures are in the recognizable form of its kind, in humans after the end of the second month of gestation.

The official definition of a fetus states that it is in the egg or womb. Once it is born (not aborted) it is a human being. And why are you talking about fetus rights? How are they supposed to use them?

Official definition, give me a break, think for your own self. Does birth make the baby noticeably different than it was even just a few days ago inside the womb? Absolutely not. Birth only signifies that the baby is ready to move onto its next stage of life jsut like when the blastocyst of cells inside a woman’s body after conception begins to form, arms, legs, and a brain.

So your saying you prefer opinion over fact to try and make a point?

Join “The Zeitgeist Movement”

ramunematt wrote:

the21gamer wrote:

ramunematt wrote:

Brain wrote:

ramunematt wrote:

Brain wrote:

ramunematt wrote:

Brain wrote:

ramunematt wrote:

Brain wrote:

ramunematt wrote:

Brain wrote:

ramunematt wrote:

Manchester Black wrote:

ramunematt wrote:
Those abortions could be used for stem cell research and actually save lives. You would be saving a lot more people than you would kill.

Even if this is true, abortion is still wrong. Would you have preferred your mother abort you for stem cell research?

ramunematt wrote:
Besides, the chance of an infant surviving past 5 years of age or even birth aren’t as high as they used to be.

There are also chances of them still surviving.

ramunematt wrote:
Besides, how do you know if Christianity is the way, or if there really is a God?

Simple, I was raised that way so I don’t use any other christianity.

ramunematt wrote:
You shouldn’t be debating this kind of thing with the guessing game.

Didn’t you kind of use the guessing game with the infants don’t survive past 5 years thing?

1. How do you know what is truely right and wrong? What you might think is morally wrong might be morally right for other people

2. Even if they survive, it might of not been as helpful as if they were used for stem cell research. Stem cell research could someday provide cures for diseases that people all around the world are suffering from. What if a baby who was not aborted turned out to have that disease or turned out to have a horrible life?

3. It would be great if you could elaborate more on that

4. No I didn’t use the guessing game because it’s a fact that everyday 30,000 children die before reaching age 5 http://www.childinfo.org/areas/childmortality/

Can we really judge at birth if a person may have a “horrible” life? While different cultures may hold different moral beliefs, a common thread runs through all of them: Murder is wrong. Would you will to live in a world that allows for the murder of innocent people in order to medically aid the ill? What if that person chosen to die was yourself? When did humanity decide it may choose which members may live or die? Just something to think about...

There is one problem with that statement. Abortion is not murder. Murder is the taking of the life of another human being through the initiation of physical force. Abortion is not murder, because a fetus is not a human being — it is a potential human being, i.e. it is part of the woman. The concept murder only applies to the initiation of physical force used to destroy an actual human being.

You seem to be confusing murder with the term “homicide”. Regardless, a fetus is going to become a human being and does display charactertistics that verify it being “alive” (heartbeat, movement, required sustinence). Thus, ending its life would be murder. The fact that a fetus has not become an “actual” human being does not make it any more or less human. You are alive today due to the fact that your mother made a conscious choice not to murder you. Be thankful.

Homicide and murder are basically the same thing. The only difference is that murder has different degrees where as homicide only has one. And although a fetus is a potential human being, it isn’t a full human being. There is a difference between a fetus and an actual human being. A fetus is basically human tissue that is being developed into a human being, not not officially a human being until it’s born. Until it is born it is part of the womb.

Oh really, a part of the womb that can move, has its own heart and internal organs, and can process information? A human being is created at conception; for some reason people today believe that life instantly begins when a baby leaves a woman’s body.

As I said before, I never said that life doesn’t begin until something is born. a Fetus can be complex, but that doesn’t automatically make it a human being. It has to be born first. A human being isn’t created at conception, a fetus is.

A baby is just a fully developed fetus; they are one in the same. There is no difference. Leaving the womb doesn’t transform a fetus into a human. Also, a zygote is formed at conception which then forms into a blastocyst through meiosis.

A baby isn’t a fetus, it’s a human being because it is no longer being developed and is no longer part of the womb.

So exiting the womb suddenly initiates you into humanity? That’s absurd

It’s absurd to be thinking that a fetus is a human being when it is still developing in the womb.

A human being comes out the mom so how does it automatically become a human being just because it came out? It either isn’t or it is. Really, it’s just in the early stages of life.

Because it’s no longer being developed in the womb.

A fetus is just a stage.

Brain wrote:

Atresac wrote:

the21gamer wrote:

Atresac wrote:

the21gamer wrote:

Atresac wrote:

the21gamer wrote:

ramunematt wrote:

Brain wrote:

ramunematt wrote:

Brain wrote:

ramunematt wrote:

Brain wrote:

ramunematt wrote:

Brain wrote:

ramunematt wrote:

Manchester Black wrote:

ramunematt wrote:
Those abortions could be used for stem cell research and actually save lives. You would be saving a lot more people than you would kill.

Even if this is true, abortion is still wrong. Would you have preferred your mother abort you for stem cell research?

ramunematt wrote:
Besides, the chance of an infant surviving past 5 years of age or even birth aren’t as high as they used to be.

There are also chances of them still surviving.

ramunematt wrote:
Besides, how do you know if Christianity is the way, or if there really is a God?

Simple, I was raised that way so I don’t use any other christianity.

ramunematt wrote:
You shouldn’t be debating this kind of thing with the guessing game.

Didn’t you kind of use the guessing game with the infants don’t survive past 5 years thing?

1. How do you know what is truely right and wrong? What you might think is morally wrong might be morally right for other people

2. Even if they survive, it might of not been as helpful as if they were used for stem cell research. Stem cell research could someday provide cures for diseases that people all around the world are suffering from. What if a baby who was not aborted turned out to have that disease or turned out to have a horrible life?

3. It would be great if you could elaborate more on that

4. No I didn’t use the guessing game because it’s a fact that everyday 30,000 children die before reaching age 5 http://www.childinfo.org/areas/childmortality/

Can we really judge at birth if a person may have a “horrible” life? While different cultures may hold different moral beliefs, a common thread runs through all of them: Murder is wrong. Would you will to live in a world that allows for the murder of innocent people in order to medically aid the ill? What if that person chosen to die was yourself? When did humanity decide it may choose which members may live or die? Just something to think about...

There is one problem with that statement. Abortion is not murder. Murder is the taking of the life of another human being through the initiation of physical force. Abortion is not murder, because a fetus is not a human being — it is a potential human being, i.e. it is part of the woman. The concept murder only applies to the initiation of physical force used to destroy an actual human being.

You seem to be confusing murder with the term “homicide”. Regardless, a fetus is going to become a human being and does display charactertistics that verify it being “alive” (heartbeat, movement, required sustinence). Thus, ending its life would be murder. The fact that a fetus has not become an “actual” human being does not make it any more or less human. You are alive today due to the fact that your mother made a conscious choice not to murder you. Be thankful.

Homicide and murder are basically the same thing. The only difference is that murder has different degrees where as homicide only has one. And although a fetus is a potential human being, it isn’t a full human being. There is a difference between a fetus and an actual human being. A fetus is basically human tissue that is being developed into a human being, not not officially a human being until it’s born. Until it is born it is part of the womb.

Oh really, a part of the womb that can move, has its own heart and internal organs, and can process information? A human being is created at conception; for some reason people today believe that life instantly begins when a baby leaves a woman’s body.

As I said before, I never said that life doesn’t begin until something is born. a Fetus can be complex, but that doesn’t automatically make it a human being. It has to be born first. A human being isn’t created at conception, a fetus is.

A baby is just a fully developed fetus; they are one in the same. There is no difference. Leaving the womb doesn’t transform a fetus into a human. Also, a zygote is formed at conception which then forms into a blastocyst through meiosis.

A baby isn’t a fetus, it’s a human being because it is no longer being developed and is no longer part of the womb.

A baby is still being developed. Their brains are not fully developed in the 1st years of their lives.

I disagree. My baby sister could name everyone in KISS, and what they played, as well as other bands, before she was 2.

That does not show proof that her brain was fully developed.

she could identify the members, what they played, and remembered their names. She was aware of things. She knew when I was coming over and who I was. I’d say she was pretty developed.

If she was 'fully developed' as you claim then she would be an idiot. There is more than just identifying.

Ok, then your brain isn’t fully developed either since you do not know everything in the world.

The point is your sister was not fully developed into a rational human being that can utilize all of its higher brain functions. The process of human development does not end at birth

Exactly.

ramunematt wrote:

Brain wrote:

ramunematt wrote:

Brain wrote:

ramunematt wrote:

Brain wrote:

ramunematt wrote:

Brain wrote:

ramunematt wrote: mur·der /ˈmɜrdər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mur-der] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).

Murder is only possible with a human being killing another human being. You can’t murder an animal, and you can’t murder a fetus.

How is abortion NOT killing another human being? Is it because it hasn’t come out of a woman’s womb? Being born doesn’t mean that life begins at that point. Life begins at the inception of child.

Yes, killing. That would be the correct term. I never said that being born is the time where life begins. But being born is the time where you are an official human being. By your logic I could say a sperm is a human being.

No, by my logic you could say that a sperm and egg cell that have joined together in order to create a living, experiencing form of life is a human being. What is an “official” human being? One which had the luck of being able to escape his/her mother’s womb before they were aborted? Is that “official” enough?

An official human being is fully developed and born out of it’s birth mother. I don’t know why you can’t see that. I am not the only one who thinks a fetus isn’t a human being.

AROUND THE NATION;
MINNESOTA COURT RULES FETUS IS NOT A HUMAN

It’s an old article, but nontheless they ruled that a fetus is not a human. If you can, I would like you to find me an article that says a fets is a human being.

Minnesota claims that a fetus is not a human? So, that makes it right? I would hate to think you honor every piece of our country’s legislation as dogmatic. Does it occur to you that perhaps they are wrong? Does the fact that a fetus exits a woman’s womb suddenly transform it into a human being? Does some magical transformation take place that was absent from its nine months of development within the womb? The act of being born only signifies that the child is ready to begin life outside the womb, not life altogether. The fetus thinks, eats, moves, breathes, just like a newborn child. Why should its rights be any different?

fe·tus /ˈfitəs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fee-tuhs] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -tus·es. Embryology. (used chiefly of viviparous mammals) the young of an animal in the womb or egg, esp. in the later stages of development when the body structures are in the recognizable form of its kind, in humans after the end of the second month of gestation.

The official definition of a fetus states that it is in the egg or womb. Once it is born (not aborted) it is a human being. And why are you talking about fetus rights? How are they supposed to use them?

Official definition, give me a break, think for your own self. Does birth make the baby noticeably different than it was even just a few days ago inside the womb? Absolutely not. Birth only signifies that the baby is ready to move onto its next stage of life jsut like when the blastocyst of cells inside a woman’s body after conception begins to form, arms, legs, and a brain.

So your saying you prefer opinion over fact to try and make a point?

A dictionary definition hardly advances your own point.

I don’t even know how we got into this “a fetus is a human being when..." arguement. What I have been trying to point out is that abortion is not murder because a fetus isn’t a human being. You can’t have an abortion on a full human being. You can have an abortion up to a certain point. When you pass that point it’s too late to get the abortion. At the point where it isn’t too late to get an abortion it is a fetus, and a fetus isn’t a human being.

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All that means is once a human become more developed they must be killed differently. It’s similar to disease. Some may be immmune to one while others may not.

the21gamer wrote: All that means is once a human become more developed they must be killed differently. It’s similar to disease. Some may be immmune to one while others may not.

Killed differently? I can see China doing that after it was born but I think here in America they just give the baby up for adoption.

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ramunematt wrote:

the21gamer wrote: All that means is once a human become more developed they must be killed differently. It’s similar to disease. Some may be immmune to one while others may not.

Killed differently? I can see China doing that after it was born but I think here in America they just give the baby up for adoption.

Why do you call it a baby? It isn’t human right?

Killed differently as in you must kill it in a different way.

...

the21gamer wrote:

ramunematt wrote:

the21gamer wrote: All that means is once a human become more developed they must be killed differently. It’s similar to disease. Some may be immmune to one while others may not.

Killed differently? I can see China doing that after it was born but I think here in America they just give the baby up for adoption.

Why do you call it a baby? It isn’t human right?

Killed differently as in you must kill it in a different way.

Is it still in the womb or was it born? Because I thought you meant after it was born.

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Mortis wrote: God sends queers to hell

*Sigh* on this thread we agreed not to bring religion to this subject a couple pages back.

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Mortis - you can argue for or against gay marriages, but do not start saying “they’re going to hell”.

im against those fags

MORTIS, THE SMARTEST PERSON ON MOVIECODEC

Say they are going to Satan’s heaven.

they are going to Satan’s heaven

MORTIS, THE SMARTEST PERSON ON MOVIECODEC

lol

I wish there were more Atheists on this site.....

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Ok 21 - don’t encourage him. Mortis - please stop.