can any christians exlpain this to me?

eh...this is something i’ve been thinking about a lot, so i decided to make a pic on photoshop about it (omg, creativeness!)



here is what all the verses are:
-Matthew 7:1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged."
-Luke 6:37 “Judge not, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven”
-James 4:12 “There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?”
-Romans 14:4 “Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.”
-Luke 6:41 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?”
-1 Corinthians 4:5 “Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.”
-Matthew 22:39-40 “39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[b] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
-Matthew 7:7-12 “Ask, and it will be given you. Seek, and you will find. Knock, and it will be opened for you. For everyone who asks receives. He who seeks finds. To him who knocks it will be opened. Or who is there among you, who, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, who will give him a serpent? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! Therefore whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
-Mathew 5:43-48 “43You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[i] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
-Luke 6:27-36 “27But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.32"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

so...idk....it just seems like someone somewhere along the line fucked up hard core like. i’ve mentioned this in ram’s thread, but i just feel like it should have its own thread, cuz this really bugs me. thoughts? as for me....i love my religion, i just can’t stand those who follow it.

Using MLK’s image in a picket sign to repel homosexuals? Blasphemy!!

But seriously, I don’t know myself. Too much homophobia. I don’t mind homosexuals. They don’t bother me, I don’t bother them. I have some in mah family, but I love my family nonetheless, homo or straight.

Zero Gravity

As far as I’m concerned they aren’t real Christians. They can’t be when they use religion as an excuse for their own personal hate and then (incorrectly) call themselves a part of that religion. They’re a literate manifestation of the evils of religion, hate to put it that way, but it’s hard not to when one of the signs reads “God is your enemy."

Ah, the “No Real Scotsman” argument. It’s a logical fallacy. I am going to guess that this argument is being used because this denomination of Christianity isn’t mainstream today and wouldn’t go in place with our current morals. It would have been perfectly acceptable if those people lived hundreds of years ago (probably where they should be) because back then it was ok to say such things.

Now the problem with Christianity and religion in general, is that they have a set standard of morals that doesn’t change. The morality of humans change overtime, which is why you think what may be considered back then acceptable (these people have primitive morals) would be degrading to religion in general.

Join “The Zeitgeist Movement”

Westboro Baptist Church = Real life trolls

ramunematt wrote: Ah, the “No Real Scotsman” argument. It’s a logical fallacy. I am going to guess that this argument is being used because this denomination of Christianity isn’t mainstream today and wouldn’t go in place with our current morals. It would have been perfectly acceptable if those people lived hundreds of years ago (probably where they should be) because back then it was ok to say such things.

Now the problem with Christianity and religion in general, is that they have a set standard of morals that doesn’t change. The morality of humans change overtime, which is why you think what may be considered back then acceptable (these people have primitive morals) would be degrading to religion in general.

of course! because people who don’t actually follow what the bible says but call themselves chrstian can DEFINITELY be considered christian, right?

i fucking hate christians...

kev360 wrote:

ramunematt wrote: Ah, the “No Real Scotsman” argument. It’s a logical fallacy. I am going to guess that this argument is being used because this denomination of Christianity isn’t mainstream today and wouldn’t go in place with our current morals. It would have been perfectly acceptable if those people lived hundreds of years ago (probably where they should be) because back then it was ok to say such things.

Now the problem with Christianity and religion in general, is that they have a set standard of morals that doesn’t change. The morality of humans change overtime, which is why you think what may be considered back then acceptable (these people have primitive morals) would be degrading to religion in general.

of course! because people who don’t actually follow what the bible says but call themselves chrstian can DEFINITELY be considered christian, right?

i fucking hate christians...

Way to hate about 80% of you’re country o.0

kev360 wrote: eh...this is something i’ve been thinking about a lot, so i decided to make a pic on photoshop about it (omg, creativeness!)



here is what all the verses are:
-Matthew 7:1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged."
-Luke 6:37 “Judge not, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven”
-James 4:12 “There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?”
-Romans 14:4 “Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.”
-Luke 6:41 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?”
-1 Corinthians 4:5 “Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.”
-Matthew 22:39-40 “39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[b] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
-Matthew 7:7-12 “Ask, and it will be given you. Seek, and you will find. Knock, and it will be opened for you. For everyone who asks receives. He who seeks finds. To him who knocks it will be opened. Or who is there among you, who, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, who will give him a serpent? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! Therefore whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
-Mathew 5:43-48 “43You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[i] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
-Luke 6:27-36 “27But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.32"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

so...idk....it just seems like someone somewhere along the line fucked up hard core like. i’ve mentioned this in ram’s thread, but i just feel like it should have its own thread, cuz this really bugs me. thoughts? as for me....i love my religion, i just can’t stand those who follow it.

It’s sad that children are doing this.

Not that the whole community isn’t bad but children should not be wearing shirts against a religion, race, or anything else that applies.

To me, the Westboro Baptist Church should taken down.

kev360 wrote:

ramunematt wrote: Ah, the “No Real Scotsman” argument. It’s a logical fallacy. I am going to guess that this argument is being used because this denomination of Christianity isn’t mainstream today and wouldn’t go in place with our current morals. It would have been perfectly acceptable if those people lived hundreds of years ago (probably where they should be) because back then it was ok to say such things.

Now the problem with Christianity and religion in general, is that they have a set standard of morals that doesn’t change. The morality of humans change overtime, which is why you think what may be considered back then acceptable (these people have primitive morals) would be degrading to religion in general.

of course! because people who don’t actually follow what the bible says but call themselves chrstian can DEFINITELY be considered christian, right?

i fucking hate christians...

Yes actually, they can be called Christians. I mean they certainly wouldn’t be called Christian today since it’s not mainstream and goes below our current moral standards, but the Westboro Church was what mainstream Christianity was like hundreds of years ago. They followed what the Bible says. Not in the same day we do today, but they did follow it. In fact, if you were born hundreds of years earlier then chances are you would have followed the same type of Christianity the Westboro church follows.

Join “The Zeitgeist Movement”

Immerse Shadow wrote:

kev360 wrote: eh...this is something i’ve been thinking about a lot, so i decided to make a pic on photoshop about it (omg, creativeness!)



here is what all the verses are:
-Matthew 7:1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged."
-Luke 6:37 “Judge not, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven”
-James 4:12 “There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?”
-Romans 14:4 “Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.”
-Luke 6:41 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?”
-1 Corinthians 4:5 “Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.”
-Matthew 22:39-40 “39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[b] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
-Matthew 7:7-12 “Ask, and it will be given you. Seek, and you will find. Knock, and it will be opened for you. For everyone who asks receives. He who seeks finds. To him who knocks it will be opened. Or who is there among you, who, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, who will give him a serpent? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! Therefore whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
-Mathew 5:43-48 “43You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[i] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
-Luke 6:27-36 “27But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.32"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

so...idk....it just seems like someone somewhere along the line fucked up hard core like. i’ve mentioned this in ram’s thread, but i just feel like it should have its own thread, cuz this really bugs me. thoughts? as for me....i love my religion, i just can’t stand those who follow it.

It’s sad that children are doing this.

Not that the whole community isn’t bad but children should not be wearing shirts against a religion, race, or anything else that applies.

To me, the Westboro Baptist Church should taken down.

1. The kids have been brainwashed from birth and don’t know what they are doing is wrong. They will do the same to their kids and the cycle will go on and on.

2. Oh and until they do something illegal I disagree with getting rid of that church. I will do a lot to preserve freedom of speech, even for those whose message I despise.

ramunematt wrote: Ah, the “No Real Scotsman” argument. It’s a logical fallacy. I am going to guess that this argument is being used because this denomination of Christianity isn’t mainstream today and wouldn’t go in place with our current morals. It would have been perfectly acceptable if those people lived hundreds of years ago (probably where they should be) because back then it was ok to say such things.

Now the problem with Christianity and religion in general, is that they have a set standard of morals that doesn’t change. The morality of humans change overtime, which is why you think what may be considered back then acceptable (these people have primitive morals) would be degrading to religion in general.

(Firefox is such a pissoff when it comes to replying, deleting any reply if you dare click a button , anyway, gonna summarize my original post)

It’s how I see it, not how it factually is. Factually there isn’t really any “true” form of Christianity as they all follow the supposed “word of God”. There’s a problem when there are so many different books out there telling of the word of God, each containing their own contradictions within themselves, and out of that, one has to discern what is the true word of God and what isn’t. Same could be said for a lot of religions in general as well.
So yes, I call them untrue Christians because they’re morally questionable/idiotic, or just plain dumbasses when it comes to right and wrong. What other measure of true or untrue could be used for it?

As for religion and the guidelines, usually, from what I’ve observed, most religions have adapted somewhat to today’s rules (especially compared to their medieval counterparts) and often have taken their religious texts as more of guidelines. Yes, the book doesn’t change, but the interpreter does.
Obviously, the people in that form of “Christianity” depicted haven’t.

Crimson_Blade wrote:

Immerse Shadow wrote:

kev360 wrote: eh...this is something i’ve been thinking about a lot, so i decided to make a pic on photoshop about it (omg, creativeness!)



here is what all the verses are:
-Matthew 7:1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged."
-Luke 6:37 “Judge not, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven”
-James 4:12 “There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?”
-Romans 14:4 “Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.”
-Luke 6:41 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?”
-1 Corinthians 4:5 “Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.”
-Matthew 22:39-40 “39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[b] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
-Matthew 7:7-12 “Ask, and it will be given you. Seek, and you will find. Knock, and it will be opened for you. For everyone who asks receives. He who seeks finds. To him who knocks it will be opened. Or who is there among you, who, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, who will give him a serpent? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! Therefore whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
-Mathew 5:43-48 “43You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[i] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
-Luke 6:27-36 “27But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.32"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

so...idk....it just seems like someone somewhere along the line fucked up hard core like. i’ve mentioned this in ram’s thread, but i just feel like it should have its own thread, cuz this really bugs me. thoughts? as for me....i love my religion, i just can’t stand those who follow it.

It’s sad that children are doing this.

Not that the whole community isn’t bad but children should not be wearing shirts against a religion, race, or anything else that applies.

To me, the Westboro Baptist Church should taken down.

1. The kids have been brainwashed from birth and don’t know what they are doing is wrong. They will do the same to their kids and the cycle will go on and on.

2. Oh and until they do something illegal I disagree with getting rid of that church. I will do a lot to preserve freedom of speech, even for those whose message I despise.

Well I don’t like the idea of people going around the neighborhood saying everybody is a “fag”.

Immerse Shadow wrote:

Crimson_Blade wrote:

Immerse Shadow wrote:

kev360 wrote: eh...this is something i’ve been thinking about a lot, so i decided to make a pic on photoshop about it (omg, creativeness!)



here is what all the verses are:
-Matthew 7:1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged."
-Luke 6:37 “Judge not, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven”
-James 4:12 “There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?”
-Romans 14:4 “Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.”
-Luke 6:41 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?”
-1 Corinthians 4:5 “Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.”
-Matthew 22:39-40 “39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[b] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
-Matthew 7:7-12 “Ask, and it will be given you. Seek, and you will find. Knock, and it will be opened for you. For everyone who asks receives. He who seeks finds. To him who knocks it will be opened. Or who is there among you, who, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, who will give him a serpent? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! Therefore whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
-Mathew 5:43-48 “43You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[i] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
-Luke 6:27-36 “27But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.32"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

so...idk....it just seems like someone somewhere along the line fucked up hard core like. i’ve mentioned this in ram’s thread, but i just feel like it should have its own thread, cuz this really bugs me. thoughts? as for me....i love my religion, i just can’t stand those who follow it.

It’s sad that children are doing this.

Not that the whole community isn’t bad but children should not be wearing shirts against a religion, race, or anything else that applies.

To me, the Westboro Baptist Church should taken down.

1. The kids have been brainwashed from birth and don’t know what they are doing is wrong. They will do the same to their kids and the cycle will go on and on.

2. Oh and until they do something illegal I disagree with getting rid of that church. I will do a lot to preserve freedom of speech, even for those whose message I despise.

Well I don’t like the idea of people going around the neighborhood saying everybody is a “fag”.

That’s why you can get a restraining order to make them stay at least 500m from you’re house. That is why they are not practically in the graveyard when they are protesting.

ramunematt wrote:

kev360 wrote:

ramunematt wrote: Ah, the “No Real Scotsman” argument. It’s a logical fallacy. I am going to guess that this argument is being used because this denomination of Christianity isn’t mainstream today and wouldn’t go in place with our current morals. It would have been perfectly acceptable if those people lived hundreds of years ago (probably where they should be) because back then it was ok to say such things.

Now the problem with Christianity and religion in general, is that they have a set standard of morals that doesn’t change. The morality of humans change overtime, which is why you think what may be considered back then acceptable (these people have primitive morals) would be degrading to religion in general.

of course! because people who don’t actually follow what the bible says but call themselves chrstian can DEFINITELY be considered christian, right?

i fucking hate christians...

Yes actually, they can be called Christians. I mean they certainly wouldn’t be called Christian today since it’s not mainstream and goes below our current moral standards, but the Westboro Church was what mainstream Christianity was like hundreds of years ago. They followed what the Bible says. Not in the same day we do today, but they did follow it. In fact, if you were born hundreds of years earlier then chances are you would have followed the same type of Christianity the Westboro church follows.

but, the thing is, its not doctrinal. i don’t care what the excuse is, if i can find that many verses in five minutes basically saying those people are idiots, there is something seriously wrong with what they are doing.

and, not really. i have all of one christian friend who is no on prop 8. wait, 2. i’ve debated with three more about it. btw, i’m no on prop 8...if only i could actually vote...but, my point is its still mainstream christianity to be anti-gay. obviously i used an extreme example, but the sentiment is still there, all through the religion. and, it makes me sick.

and, just for the record, i’m very pro freedom of speech. i’m not saying they shouldn’t be allowed to say that, i’m saying that their idiots for saying it, and that it pisses me off because they give all christians a bad name, as we see with my argument with ram.

kev360 wrote: and, just for the record, i’m very pro freedom of speech. i’m not saying they shouldn’t be allowed to say that, i’m saying that their idiots for saying it, and that it pisses me off because they give all christians a bad name, as we see with my argument with ram.

To be honest when most Christians get drawn into a religious argument there close minded debating style gives them all a bad name. But that is from personal experience.

Crimson_Blade wrote:

kev360 wrote: and, just for the record, i’m very pro freedom of speech. i’m not saying they shouldn’t be allowed to say that, i’m saying that their idiots for saying it, and that it pisses me off because they give all christians a bad name, as we see with my argument with ram.

To be honest when most Christians get drawn into a religious argument there close minded debating style gives them all a bad name. But that is from personal experience.

Yeah that happens a lot, isn’t just localized with Christianity, as I’m sure most everyone here knows extremists of any sort can be close-minded in debates.
Of course, I think it was said before that like, 80% of America is Christian, so it makes sense as to how they could get a bad name with close-mindedness, considering the ratios.

kev360 wrote:

ramunematt wrote:

kev360 wrote:

ramunematt wrote: Ah, the “No Real Scotsman” argument. It’s a logical fallacy. I am going to guess that this argument is being used because this denomination of Christianity isn’t mainstream today and wouldn’t go in place with our current morals. It would have been perfectly acceptable if those people lived hundreds of years ago (probably where they should be) because back then it was ok to say such things.

Now the problem with Christianity and religion in general, is that they have a set standard of morals that doesn’t change. The morality of humans change overtime, which is why you think what may be considered back then acceptable (these people have primitive morals) would be degrading to religion in general.

of course! because people who don’t actually follow what the bible says but call themselves chrstian can DEFINITELY be considered christian, right?

i fucking hate christians...

Yes actually, they can be called Christians. I mean they certainly wouldn’t be called Christian today since it’s not mainstream and goes below our current moral standards, but the Westboro Church was what mainstream Christianity was like hundreds of years ago. They followed what the Bible says. Not in the same day we do today, but they did follow it. In fact, if you were born hundreds of years earlier then chances are you would have followed the same type of Christianity the Westboro church follows.

but, the thing is, its not doctrinal. i don’t care what the excuse is, if i can find that many verses in five minutes basically saying those people are idiots, there is something seriously wrong with what they are doing.

and, not really. i have all of one christian friend who is no on prop 8. wait, 2. i’ve debated with three more about it. btw, i’m no on prop 8...if only i could actually vote...but, my point is its still mainstream christianity to be anti-gay. obviously i used an extreme example, but the sentiment is still there, all through the religion. and, it makes me sick.

Actually there are parts of the Bible that they could use to justify their beliefs so it is doctrinal. Remember that the Bible was written in a time where everyone hated/killed homosexuals. There are verses in the Bible that say to love everyone, but it contradicts itself so many times that it also says to kill homosexuals.

20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Plain and simple. Also, god did kill the Sodomites which is a Biblical name for homosexual. Seems like the Christian god is very homophobic which is probably why there aren’t many devout homosexual Christians (aside from the priests). Believe me, if I wanted I could selectively choose tons of disgusting verses from the Bible while ignoring the good ones and make a religion more hateful than the KKK, in the same way that you selectively take all the good verses while ignoring the bad ones.

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ramunematt wrote:

kev360 wrote:

ramunematt wrote:

kev360 wrote:

ramunematt wrote: Ah, the “No Real Scotsman” argument. It’s a logical fallacy. I am going to guess that this argument is being used because this denomination of Christianity isn’t mainstream today and wouldn’t go in place with our current morals. It would have been perfectly acceptable if those people lived hundreds of years ago (probably where they should be) because back then it was ok to say such things.

Now the problem with Christianity and religion in general, is that they have a set standard of morals that doesn’t change. The morality of humans change overtime, which is why you think what may be considered back then acceptable (these people have primitive morals) would be degrading to religion in general.

of course! because people who don’t actually follow what the bible says but call themselves chrstian can DEFINITELY be considered christian, right?

i fucking hate christians...

Yes actually, they can be called Christians. I mean they certainly wouldn’t be called Christian today since it’s not mainstream and goes below our current moral standards, but the Westboro Church was what mainstream Christianity was like hundreds of years ago. They followed what the Bible says. Not in the same day we do today, but they did follow it. In fact, if you were born hundreds of years earlier then chances are you would have followed the same type of Christianity the Westboro church follows.

but, the thing is, its not doctrinal. i don’t care what the excuse is, if i can find that many verses in five minutes basically saying those people are idiots, there is something seriously wrong with what they are doing.

and, not really. i have all of one christian friend who is no on prop 8. wait, 2. i’ve debated with three more about it. btw, i’m no on prop 8...if only i could actually vote...but, my point is its still mainstream christianity to be anti-gay. obviously i used an extreme example, but the sentiment is still there, all through the religion. and, it makes me sick.

Actually there are parts of the Bible that they could use to justify their beliefs so it is doctrinal. Remember that the Bible was written in a time where everyone hated/killed homosexuals. There are verses in the Bible that say to love everyone, but it contradicts itself so many times that it also says to kill homosexuals.

20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Plain and simple. Also, god did kill the Sodomites which is a Biblical name for homosexual. Seems like the Christian god is very homophobic which is probably why there aren’t many devout homosexual Christians (aside from the priests). Believe me, if I wanted I could selectively choose tons of disgusting verses from the Bible while ignoring the good ones and make a religion more hateful than the KKK, in the same way that you selectively take all the good verses while ignoring the bad ones.

lol at priests. that is something a bit interesting though. wtf happened there?

that verse is in the old testament, and, as far as old testament goes, thats run of the mill. there are much stranger things. the thing is, through the new testament, and in the last supper, jesus set up a new covenant, one that disregarded the last one with commandments such as that.

IN the new testiment, to my knowledge, there is only one reference to homsexuality. its this: “25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator — who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts.

Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done."

2 things about this verse. first, obviously, this isn’t condemning anyone. its just calling homosexuality a sin. so, that still makes my verse’s a valid response as to whats going on. second...http://www.jeramyt.org/papers/paulcybl.html a lot of reading, eh? i’ll summerize it for you:

“We have little reason to believe, at least in this specific passage, that Paul’s attacks are based on anything but a desire to protect the Roman church from engaging in the worship of pagan gods. There is insufficient evidence to infer anything about Paul’s beliefs regarding gender and sexuality from Romans 1, since the context is constricted so tightly to pagan rituals. Paul may or may not have been anti-homogenital in his personal views. But this text does not address that issue. The only claim for which we can find evidence in this passage is that Paul condemns the worship of pagan gods, including the ritualized homo- and/or heterosexual sacred-sex involved in that worship."

read the conclusion of that article for more info, if you want a bit more, or the entire thing if your really curious (which i doubt. haha).

as for the sodomites, it really sounds like it (wut with the whole sodomy thing), but, when i was investigating this for myself (i’m not the type to just believe on impulse because someone i’m arguing with says something. no offense. just how i argue), i came across this verse:

ezekiel 16:49
“Sodom’s sins were pride, gluttony, and laziness, while the poor and needy suffered outside her door."

and, i’m sure you probably could. if i’ve learned one thing about you through arguing about religion, its that you can do just that. the thing is, the bible was written long ago. i know your gonna wanna beat me over the head with a lead pipe for taking this way out, but you have to remember, there was SO much more going on when this stuff was written, and much of it was written in response to things going on, as with homosexuality above. people say its easy to read the bible. those people are idiots. you are reading a book from a different culture, a different language, and a different time. there’s nothing easy about understanding it, because you have to understand everything else going on at the time to truly understand the bible.

No, I’m not going to beat you over the head for that. All I’m trying to say is that human morals change overtime, and that the Westboro Church is just a little left behind (by little I mean very far off). The New Testament is a perfect example of what I’m trying to say. People were finally starting to see what was in the Old Testament was an insult to human morality, even though personally I think needing Commandments and rules in general is insulting to our morality since we are evidently able to pick our which verses to follow and which to ignore... which is why we find their beliefs disgusting.

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