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Do supernatural things exist?

[Reply] #1
12-04-2008 07:45 AM
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Bender Alchemist
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A question that I think fundamentally underlies the one “Does God exist?" is “Do supernatural things exist”? Obviously, an omnipotent God would be supernatural.

So, to start out I will say this: science cannot disprove the supernatural. Science is the study of things that act in predictable, natural ways. However, the supernatural is not predictable. If God exists, He would be able to appear in any way, shape, or form, and do any kind of thing, with no way to predict it. So, science can neither prove or disprove the supernatural.

The truth is supernatural things are present in the world. You may say “but science hasn’t documented it”, but it can’t. I will give a few stories that seem to show supernatural happenings.

First, a small first-hand story. I was at a retreat a year ago with my church’s (an Assembly of God) youth group. I had a migraine. Anyone who gets migraines knows they are not fun- they give you terrible headaches and nausea. I was sitting in the worship room in the evening service, but I just not feeling good enough to join in. A friend (not too close, more like an acquaintance) came over to me and asked what’s up, why am I not worshipping (because I usually worship fervently). I told him my problem, and he calmly put his hand on my head and said a quick prayer, which I didn’t even hear (modern youth worship music is loud. After he said “amen” and left, my headache was gone. No natural explanation is possible for that.

Also, the speaker there (Allen Griffin) told this story (can’t remember if it was before or after the previous). He was at an event one time, and he has this tradition of pouring small amounts of olive oil on the heads of participants. Well, one girl was there who had recently broken her neck, without paralysis, and was wearing a neck brace. When the oil was poured on her, she got frantic, started running around the building, and tried to take the brace off. Now, the speaker didn’t intend to do anything, and was rather worried about a girl with a broken neck taking her brace off. However, when she took it off, her neck was healed! And it was nowhere near the expected time for it to naturally heal.

A third story (one I almost witnessed) happened at my youth group one Wednesday night. Shortly after youth group ended, and I had left, people started praying over a demon-possessed teen. People who approached him, even without being told what was going on, describe a presence of evil. One described it as “going through a wall”. He was writhing and speaking in strange voices and languages. After a few hours, the demons left. Now, the church did not make a big deal out of this- I only heard about it in my teen Sunday School, not in service. A few weeks later the guy that invited that kid to service on Wednesday gave a brief testimony on what God has been doing in his life, with a short, passing statement that he had been freed from a demon.

How can science and naturalism explain all of this?

[Reply] #2
12-04-2008 08:45 AM
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Oliver Proslmeyr
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You’ve basically summed it up. Science cannot prove or disprove the unexplainable.

Personally I am not a beliver of any sort, but I have a deep interest in the supernatural. it is possible that these situations are genuine, but then again it is possible that you simply lying. There is no way for me to prove or disprove that from my position.

but it does make one want to ask questions. The kind of ones that are’nt realy answerable.

[Reply] #3
12-04-2008 09:58 AM
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Khorib
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Bender Alchemist wrote: A question that I think fundamentally underlies the one “Does God exist?" is “Do supernatural things exist”? Obviously, an omnipotent God would be supernatural.

So, to start out I will say this: science cannot disprove the supernatural. Science is the study of things that act in predictable, natural ways. However, the supernatural is not predictable. If God exists, He would be able to appear in any way, shape, or form, and do any kind of thing, with no way to predict it. So, science can neither prove or disprove the supernatural.

The truth is supernatural things are present in the world. You may say “but science hasn’t documented it”, but it can’t. I will give a few stories that seem to show supernatural happenings.

1. First, a small first-hand story. I was at a retreat a year ago with my church’s (an Assembly of God) youth group. I had a migraine. Anyone who gets migraines knows they are not fun- they give you terrible headaches and nausea. I was sitting in the worship room in the evening service, but I just not feeling good enough to join in. A friend (not too close, more like an acquaintance) came over to me and asked what’s up, why am I not worshipping (because I usually worship fervently). I told him my problem, and he calmly put his hand on my head and said a quick prayer, which I didn’t even hear (modern youth worship music is loud. After he said “amen” and left, my headache was gone. No natural explanation is possible for that.

2. Also, the speaker there (Allen Griffin) told this story (can’t remember if it was before or after the previous). He was at an event one time, and he has this tradition of pouring small amounts of olive oil on the heads of participants. Well, one girl was there who had recently broken her neck, without paralysis, and was wearing a neck brace. When the oil was poured on her, she got frantic, started running around the building, and tried to take the brace off. Now, the speaker didn’t intend to do anything, and was rather worried about a girl with a broken neck taking her brace off. However, when she took it off, her neck was healed! And it was nowhere near the expected time for it to naturally heal.

3. A third story (one I almost witnessed) happened at my youth group one Wednesday night. Shortly after youth group ended, and I had left, people started praying over a demon-possessed teen. People who approached him, even without being told what was going on, describe a presence of evil. One described it as “going through a wall”. He was writhing and speaking in strange voices and languages. After a few hours, the demons left. Now, the church did not make a big deal out of this- I only heard about it in my teen Sunday School, not in service. A few weeks later the guy that invited that kid to service on Wednesday gave a brief testimony on what God has been doing in his life, with a short, passing statement that he had been freed from a demon.


How can science and naturalism explain all of this?



1. Did you know that sex also “miraculously” cures headaches? I’ve also “cured” my own through concentration... and I’m not talking about tiny headaches either. I would not call this a supernatural event, but more of a placebo. You know, my girlfriend chews gum to “cure” her nausea. It literally “cures” it within seconds. There is nothing special about your situation.

2. Hearsay. That’s all it is. You do not know the details of this girl, you don’t know how long she had been wearing the neck brace prior or how bad the injury actually was. For all you know, honestly, the girls neck could have healed early on its own, and then she planned on doing what she did to make it seem as if she got healed. Would that be so out of the question that people stretched truths or even out-right lied?

3. More hearsay. Why is it that these “demons” only make themselves apparent to people in a church or similar? Sounds like people want attention really. Or maybe that kid had epilepsy, which, from what I’ve heard, is commonly mistaken for demon possession. Guess what else used to cause people to get exorcised? Autism. Kids with autism were and still have attempted exorcisms performed on them because these avid believers think that his “fit” is being caused by demons.


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[Reply] #4
12-04-2008 01:46 PM
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1. Placebo? I did not hear what my friend said. For all I knew he could have prayed that I would not throw up later, or that the headache would not get in the way of worship, or just prayed that it would fade away through the night. It couldn’t be a placebo if I did not know what the prayer was supposed to do.

Sex is known to release endorphins in the brain. Concentration is just trying to relax. There are explanations for why those relieve headaches, not for my experience.

2. I know that it was nowhere near the time needed for it to heal, she broken her neck just a couple days ago. Bones to not heal in just a couple days.

3. How could it be attention-grabbing if no announcement or boasting was done? The fact was an exorcism had happened. The church staff was not proud or anything. It was discussed in Sunday School, not as part of the class, but in the chit-chat before class. The kid’s friend gave a brief testimony in service about the kid in general that only made passing reference to the possesion.

As for why demons only make themselves apparent in church is because they can’t stand it. Demon-possessed people in the Bible could not stop from crying out against Jesus and his apostles. Also, autism or epilesy does not account for the strange languages and voices or for the presence of evil the witnesses felt.

[Reply] #5
12-04-2008 02:30 PM
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Khorib
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Bender Alchemist wrote: 1. Placebo? I did not hear what my friend said. For all I knew he could have prayed that I would not throw up later, or that the headache would not get in the way of worship, or just prayed that it would fade away through the night. It couldn’t be a placebo if I did not know what the prayer was supposed to do.

Sex is known to release endorphins in the brain. Concentration is just trying to relax. There are explanations for why those relieve headaches, not for my experience.

2. I know that it was nowhere near the time needed for it to heal, she broken her neck just a couple days ago. Bones to not heal in just a couple days.

3. How could it be attention-grabbing if no announcement or boasting was done? The fact was an exorcism had happened. The church staff was not proud or anything. It was discussed in Sunday School, not as part of the class, but in the chit-chat before class. The kid’s friend gave a brief testimony in service about the kid in general that only made passing reference to the possesion.

As for why demons only make themselves apparent in church is because they can’t stand it. Demon-possessed people in the Bible could not stop from crying out against Jesus and his apostles. Also, autism or epilesy does not account for the strange languages and voices or for the presence of evil the witnesses felt.



If you are as firm as a believers as you seem, him touching your head and praying (doesn’t matter if you can’t hear) can still work as a placebo.
Yes, I know why sex relieves all sorts of symptoms, I was just using it as an example. I’m also positive that your “laying on hands” is placebo based and far from being miracle workings.

How do you know she actually broke her neck? She could have sprained her neck, and then lied about it saying she broke it. How do you honestly know? That’s why its hearsay.

What could be more attention grabbing than rolling on the ground speaking gibberish? Also, people trying to get attention aren’t necessarily aiming at getting an audience of 100 viewers. The lad was obviously getting the full attention of the staff that was “exorcising” him. Demon possession my ass. I bet I could have cured him... though he’d be quite upset about it. All you need is to get a bottle of smelling salts. Just waft that stuff in his face a few times with the threat of continuing it unless he knocks it off... He’ll come around real quick, I guarantee it.

I didn’t just say church, just among a certain brand of church goers is really what I’m saying I guess. People feinting and crying and speaking in “tongues”... These people sadden me... they really do. It is very occult-like behavior.


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[Reply] #6
12-04-2008 02:45 PM
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I did not expect my headache to be healed. I just thought “Oh, he prayed over me, that’s nice”. Then it was gone. Vanished. Not present. No natural explanation.

Her neck was broken. You are hearing the story from me, and I say it was broken, because I heard it was broken. You have no right to say “It was just sprained”.

The exorcism happened after service was over. Not many people were left to get the attention of except the worship band and the church staff, and perhaps a few lingering attendees. If he wanted to get attention, he would have done it earlier. A person, no matter how much they want attention, cannot conjure up distinctly different sounding voices and a presence of evil.

[Reply] #7
12-04-2008 02:59 PM
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Bender Alchemist wrote: I did not expect my headache to be healed. I just thought “Oh, he prayed over me, that’s nice”. Then it was gone. Vanished. Not present. No natural explanation.

Her neck was broken. You are hearing the story from me, and I say it was broken, because I heard it was broken. You have no right to say “It was just sprained”.

The exorcism happened after service was over. Not many people were left to get the attention of except the worship band and the church staff, and perhaps a few lingering attendees. If he wanted to get attention, he would have done it earlier. A person, no matter how much they want attention, cannot conjure up distinctly different sounding voices and a presence of evil.




1. It matters little what was consciously going through your head. You are trying to say that your headache going away is a miracle... and I’m telling you your an idiot if you think that is going to fly for miracle work since I’ve experienced something far more amazing that I’m sure you or most religious people would consider impossible.

2. I didn’t say it was sprained, I said it could have been. Fair enough, I heard the story from you, and you heard it from someone else. You say her neck was broken a few days prior, I say that I don’t believe you and that someone is lying.

3. Hmmm, have you ever been to a psychiatric ward? No? Let me tell you friend, you will hear noises that you would have never thought a person could make. People with multiple personality can completely change their voice enough to completely fool the most advanced voice recognition software. Now I’m assuming that your buddy that was flailing about on the floor doesn’t have multiple-personality disorder, but it is still possible to change your voice so that at least you as a human can’t recognize it. You also seem determined to think that if he wanted attention, that he would have done it when there was the most people around... you are wrong. Some people just want to feel unique, special, or to feel like they are a part of the group. Remember the events of Salem? The children actually thought they were seeing demons and witches, and feeling pain caused by hexes. While this is considered group hysteria, it is still very similar psychology to those that “need to be exorcised”.


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[Reply] #8
12-04-2008 03:10 PM
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1. It is not a major miracle, I admit. The reason I include it is because it is the only account I have firsthand. Other than a specific miracle, another thing I can attest to is the feeling of the presence of God in the church when I worship. That cannot be explained. Nor can speaking in tongues, which I do during worship.

2. Fine, then, let’s just agree to disagree.

3. By asking that, I assume you have?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._Scott_Peck

Perhaps some of the stuff in a psychiatric ward is demonic, people just don’t want to acknowledge it. This guy does. People who do not believe in the supernatural will try to explain supernatural things as natural. That does not mean they can succeed.

Edited 12-04-2008 03:14 PM by Bender Alchemist
[Reply] #9
12-04-2008 03:26 PM
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Bender Alchemist wrote: 1. It is not a major miracle, I admit. The reason I include it is because it is the only account I have firsthand. Other than a specific miracle, another thing I can attest to is the feeling of the presence of God in the church when I worship. That cannot be explained. Nor can speaking in tongues, which I do during worship.

2. Fine, then, let’s just agree to disagree.

3. By asking that, I assume you have?

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._Scott_Peck] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._Scott_Peck



Perhaps some of the stuff in a psychiatric ward is demonic, people just don’t want to acknowledge it. This guy does. People who do not believe in the supernatural will try to explain supernatural things as natural. That does not mean they can succeed.



1. “Speaking in Tongues” has been observed by many linguists and is quickly determined to be garble and highly nonsensical. Arguing psychology on this subject with you, however, will be futile because you will no doubt defend that it is a communication between you and god, especially since you are a participant.

2. Fair enough.

3. Yes, I have entered a psychiatric ward, though not because I was admitted, haha. I think the “evil” that is felt is due to the exposure of humans doing things that are very uncharacteristically human. It’s like as if you are standing near someone that is going into a seizure, or doing other things that we would rarely experience, and the fact that it is happening in such close proximity to us.
My g/f works with autistic children, some of which are upwards 18 years of age. I must say, I don’t know how she does it, because some of these kids do some of the most bizarre things, and make the oddest noises that are anything but “cute”. All of it makes me want to run out of the house and chain-smoke a pack of cigarettes. One of them, from the way she looks and acts, I wouldn’t be surprised to walk into a room to find her eating someone, like out of a horror movie... again, this is my own personal discomfort and taboos toward the extremely disabled. They are most certainly not demon possessed, though. Just autistic and in some cases with a cases of MR (mental retardation) as well. Considering their condition, they are still good kids.


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Edited 12-04-2008 03:31 PM by Khorib
[Reply] #10
12-04-2008 03:43 PM
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1. Yes, some is garble, but I have heard tongues as a very straightforward speech. How would linguists be able to decipher tongues, if it is a completely unknown language? It could be as foreign to all known languages as Chinese is not like English at all. Also, there are accounts of people speaking in a real language, with people who can speak and understand it present, but the person speaking did not know the language. Neither known or unknown tongues-speaking can be naturally explained.

3. The band members, when they jumped down to see what was going on, described feeling a presence of evil as they approached. Simply seeing someone lying on the floor would not be enough to conjure this feeling, because demonic possession is not the only cause of it acknowledged by charismatic churches (look up “slain in the spirit”]. Also, people can get very emotional for God without anything specifically supernatural happening. Your explanation fails. Still no natural explanation.

Edited 12-04-2008 04:10 PM by Bender Alchemist
[Reply] #11
12-04-2008 03:53 PM
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Bender Alchemist wrote: 1. Yes, some is garble, but I have heard tongues as a very straightforward speech. How would linguists be able to decipher tongues, if it is a completely unknown language? It could be as foreign to all known languages as Chinese is not like English at all. Also, there are accounts of people speaking in a real language, with people who can speak and understand it present, but the person speaking did not know the language. Neither known or unknown tongues-speaking can be naturally explained.

3. The band members, when they jumped down to see what was going on, described feeling a presence of evil as they approached. Simply seeing someone lying on the floor would not be enough to conjure this feeling, because demonic possession is not the only cause of it acknowledged by charismatic churches (look up “slain in the spirit”wink. Also, people can get very emotional for God without anything specifically supernatural happening. Your explanation fails. Still no natural explanation.



My explanation doesn’t fail, it just doesn’t go into the full length of explaining everything in detail. I just gave you a brief.

Linguists look for patterns and structure in new unknown languages. It doesn’t matter if they can’t understand what is being said, there is still structure to all language. “Tongues” has no structure at all.

Someone falling down onto the floor and the commotion it stirs is an odd scenario in itself. Again, this delves deep into social and personal psychology, something that I am certainly not qualified to be the final say on such matters. The best example I can think of at the moment is still the atrocity of the Salem witch trials. People’s minds are very funny things, and so are their imaginations.


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[Reply] #12
12-04-2008 04:17 PM
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The smilie was unintentional.

It is impossible for linguists to observe the patterns and structures of tongues, because there is no guarantee that people will speak in the same unknown tongue all the time. A person could be speaking one unknown tongue one minute, and a different one the next. Linguists cannot know when the shift occurs.

Yes, but not unheard of in charismatic churches. Seeing someone fall on the floor without knowing the reason and when there could be a perfectly benign reason is not enough to conjure feelings of evil.

As for the Salem Witch Trials- I’m not entirely sure there was nothing supernatural involved in it. The person it started with was an old African woman, who admitted being a witch. Surely most of the victims were not demonic at all, but the goal of demons is to cause destruction. Plenty of destruction happened.

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12-04-2008 05:09 PM
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Bender Alchemist wrote: The smilie was unintentional.

It is impossible for linguists to observe the patterns and structures of tongues, because there is no guarantee that people will speak in the same unknown tongue all the time. A person could be speaking one unknown tongue one minute, and a different one the next. Linguists cannot know when the shift occurs.

Yes, but not unheard of in charismatic churches. Seeing someone fall on the floor without knowing the reason and when there could be a perfectly benign reason is not enough to conjure feelings of evil.

As for the Salem Witch Trials- I’m not entirely sure there was nothing supernatural involved in it. The person it started with was an old African woman, who admitted being a witch. Surely most of the victims were not demonic at all, but the goal of demons is to cause destruction. Plenty of destruction happened.



First, do your research. Don’t base your information off of a movie. Tituba is the woman you are claiming started the Salem witch trials. Here’s where you’re wrong:
~They aren’t sure where Tituba is from. Some believe India, some Africa, some say the islands, some say Barbados, they aren’t sure!
~Tituba was the third woman accused of witchcraft. The first was Sarah Good and Sarah Osborne. Tituba was the first to confess. Why she confessed is debatable but probably to avoid future punishment since those who confessed were not killed.

As for your topic:

None of the things you list show any proof of super natural.
1. This healing of your migraine explains nothing. Migraines are known to disappear without any help at all. Also you may not be telling the whole story. Maybe you had a cup of coffee or a can of soda at some point while suffering this migraine.(I get them as well)

2. I will agree with you both that you can agree to disagree. but let me give you an example of what khorib is saying. Your story about the migraine, while i don’t think you are, you could be lying. You could have taken a couple Excedrin before the prayer....we don’t know...all we can rely on is what you have told us.

3. Demonic possession is really sad. and it’s sad to me that you think that it’s present in psych wards. thats a very medieval point of view.
let me give you a story about my friend: I had a friend who believed she was a werewolf for a while. Why...cause she wanted to be unique and she thought they were cool. Anyways she claimed to have sniffed out my friend who happened to be atheist and told me he had no soul. Now should I believe that she has this supernatural power, that she is a werewolf, or that my friend has no soul. No. Speaking in tongues or convulsing simply qualifies a need to feel special or a severe psychological illness not demonic possession. as for the evil sensation...thats in a person’s mind. It is the idea that someone is doing something unnatural or abnormal. And on top of that if you equate these symptoms to demonic possession you are going to make yourself believe there is an evil presence. The mind can play funny tricks on us!
I could go on but this is already way to long


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Edited 12-04-2008 05:15 PM by OddPixie
[Reply] #14
12-04-2008 06:08 PM
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My source was history text I’m studying right now, America: A Narrative History. However, I read that a few months ago, and did not check, just said it from memory. My memory must have confused “first confessed” with “first accused”. Witchcraft is not unheard of in any of the places you said Tituba could have been from.

1. Yes, they do fade away on their own, but not immediately like it did for me. Also, you would know that they last for quite a while. Mine had only just hit being unbearably painful. Also, no soda or coffee was available there. Of course I had no pills, or I wouldn’t even consider telling this story. Still no explanation.

2. If demon possession was possible, wouldn’t it make sense for possessed people to end up in psych wards? Not that I am specifically calling any mental illness possession. Demons are supernatural, and therefore can manifest themselves in whatever way they want. They are also intelligent, though, and could choose to manifest themselves as a known illness. We wouldn’t know.

As I said, people approaching did not know why the person was on the floor, and there were possible alternatives for him to be on the floor. Yet the sensation of an evil presence was still there. There is no natural explanation for it.

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12-04-2008 07:05 PM
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I agree that “witchcraft” in the Christian sense is not unheard of in those parts. However if you actually examine the things that were and are considered witchcraft then you would know that...there really isn’t anything supernatural or evil about it.

1. fair enough. I agree migraines can last a long time. Anywhere from 1 to 72 hours or longer. However there are a lot of things that can cure migraines. There are also a lot of things that can cure a migraine without you realizing. The smell of peppermint or lavender has been proven to help, sex can cure one, cannabis...there are lots of things. The point of the matter is that just because you don’t understand how you’re migraine was cured does not mean that it was a miracle.

2.Why demonic possession. why think it exists in the first place. Why would deamons be hiding in illnesses that we know about and can alleviate with drugs. would that mean in some cases drugs are a form of exorcism.
I understand what you are saying...you are saying that they told you when this kid hit the floor, people felt an evil presence. Here’s a few ideas: One, I believe you have been saying that you didn’t hear of this till later. It is very possible even if it was 15min later. That these people talked amongst themselves and grew more and more agitated and more and more sure that what they felt was an evil presence. It’s called a mob mentality. They may have wanted so badly to believe that he was possessed that later on when reciting this story to you they twisted the truth.
If you don’t think that people would lie then how about this. It really wasn’t a sense of evil it may have been a sense of fear...of something bad happening that was misinterpreted as a sense of evil. It’s pretty much not normal anywhere for someone to just drop to the floor.

Just because I want Hogwarts, magic, faeries, elves, unicorns, vampires, and so on to exist (cause it would make life so much more exciting!) doesn’t mean they do.


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[Reply] #16
12-04-2008 07:12 PM
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Bender Alchemist wrote: A question that I think fundamentally underlies the one “Does God exist?" is “Do supernatural things exist”? Obviously, an omnipotent God would be supernatural.

So, to start out I will say this: science cannot disprove the supernatural. Science is the study of things that act in predictable, natural ways. However, the supernatural is not predictable. If God exists, He would be able to appear in any way, shape, or form, and do any kind of thing, with no way to predict it. So, science can neither prove or disprove the supernatural.



Why science cannot prove or disprove these things is because of the same reason; they don’t exist. And because the burden of proof is on you to prove they exist when they cannot be proven or disproven means... well, you’re pretty much fucked.

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12-04-2008 07:16 PM
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At any rate, this section seems to be coming back to life again. I’m happy for it.

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12-04-2008 07:18 PM
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There is no documented evidence for the supernatural, but I believe in it. Though not neccisarily ghosts, there could be OTHER explanations.


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[Reply] #19
12-04-2008 07:30 PM
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hmmm...i honestly don’t know what to make of these kinds of things. tis some strange stuff, to be sure. on the one hand, i take EVERYTHING like this that i hear with a grain of salt. i’m sure you understand that. it honestly sounds outlandish, even for someone like me, and i have no way of knowing if it happened.

that being said...

i have some fucking crazy stories. none of which are anything more then hearsay, but idk, that goes back to my above point.

well, i misspoke. i HAD some crazy stories. but, they’ve been lost in my memory. i got half way through typing up one when i realised that it had been so long i’d forgotten almost every significant deatail. BASICALLY what it was was this dude who was born into a house that worshiped satin. as a kid he was baptized to satin, and thats just how things were. this guy had numerous HORRIFIC stories about stuff he saw. idk what to think of it, honestly. its something i still have to look more into. i do believe that there are demon possessions, but idk, i don’t know what they would look like in this day and age. is it possible that hitler was possessed? i mean, what is going to do more damage? one dude freaking out hurting everyone around him, or hitler?


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[Reply] #20
12-04-2008 07:32 PM
Joined: 01-31-2008
Posts: 54,756
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Chronarch
Chronarch
Mormon Swagcifer
Rep: 336

kev360 wrote: hmmm...i honestly don’t know what to make of these kinds of things. tis some strange stuff, to be sure. on the one hand, i take EVERYTHING like this that i hear with a grain of salt. i’m sure you understand that. it honestly sounds outlandish, even for someone like me, and i have no way of knowing if it happened.

that being said...

i have some fucking crazy stories. none of which are anything more then hearsay, but idk, that goes back to my above point.

well, i misspoke. i HAD some crazy stories. but, they’ve been lost in my memory. i got half way through typing up one when i realised that it had been so long i’d forgotten almost every significant deatail. BASICALLY what it was was this dude who was born into a house that worshiped satin. as a kid he was baptized to satin, and thats just how things were. this guy had numerous HORRIFIC stories about stuff he saw. idk what to think of it, honestly. its something i still have to look more into. i do believe that there are demon possessions, but idk, i don’t know what they would look like in this day and age. is it possible that hitler was possessed? i mean, what is going to do more damage? one dude freaking out hurting everyone around him, or hitler?


Satin huh? lol I know what you mean though,


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