One thing we can all agree on

Shaun of the Living wrote:
I admit; Scientology has killed people, it treats homosexuality as a disease, it brainwashes people into giving them money and it has convinced it’s members to dogmatically ignore scientific knowledge. But you know what? Not only does Christianity do all of those things, it does them on a much larger scale that hurts more people. So, if you’re going to reveal the truth about religions that do damage to society, why focus on minor problems?

But not all of these are intrinsic values. Paying money seems to be.

Well, when I think about it, it doesn’t have to be (I’m not sure if it’s stated in the book), but people are convinced as such it seems. The religion isn’t intrinsically bad. In this day an age, I don’t see why people can’t conform to the principles of these religions by taking the time to figure how to integrate them into modern society. And on the issue of homosexuality, it’s not only religion that treats it negatively. And besides, the approval of homosexuality is over 50% in the US, so if we are really causing problems, it probably isn’t here as much. And even then, not all Christians view they should take action on homosexuality; some feel it is best to let it take it’s course, regardless of if they disagree or not because it isn’t their place to judge. Problem is, Christianity immediately seems to be related to the South of America, where it is worst in this country. Of course, there, it can be dangerous for anyone not a WASP.

I also don’t follow most of the points you mentioned in as why a secular world would be a better place. And freedom of speech is a problem outside of religion, mostly. They try to ban books they don’t like, but then again, they aren’t the state, so they can get by. Then again, so many people want to remove the subject of Intelligent Design, which is also a hit against freedom of speech, whether or not it’s wrong information is irrelevant (and with our growing nature of digital technology and genetic manipulation, I wouldn’t say it’s so far off either, although, it doesn’t have to be attributed to a deity).

Shaun of the Living wrote: Christianity is no different, it’s just easier to realise Scientology is bullshit when you haven’t been raised in a society where it’s so common.

You do have a point.

Same can be said of anyone with any sort of culture.

Thing is, as I noted, there is a veil of uncertainty that goes along with the Bible and any related works (apocrypha). We don’t know the exact nature of where these came from or why they were written. That allows people to tie themselves to a probability that it is true. Of course, it may not be, but I say “Why not," especially if it would just be easier to do so.

Shaun of the Living wrote: Like I mentioned before, Christianity, Islam and Judaism are currently screwing people over too, just in less direct psychological and social ways, rather than financial dishonesty and legal bullying.

No, the religions are not. The people running them with ulterior motives are. Same with Scientology.

If I had a bunch of atheists beating me up somewhere, should I blame it on atheism? No, because there are atheists who are pacifistic and others that wouldn’t harm someone for stupid reasons. While Christianity has influenced just about all aspects of western culture (good and bad), it continues to change because interpretations change. Some could argue they’re more accurate, others could say they are just more relevant. I don’t see why you promote removal of ALL Christianity when you could just try to find a way to remove the bad kind.

Shaun of the Living wrote: I don’t like religions that are screwing people over either, but if you ask me what’s a more important priority I would first pick the problems that are most widespread and affecting more people. Scientology is relatively minor in these aspects compared to Christianity or Islam.

Sounds dodgy.

Just because it’s minor doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be taken care of. This is irrelevant anyway. If all people focused on the same problems, many things would never be fixed.

Shaun of the Living wrote: I’m not defending Scientology here. I’m against it just as much as any other lie that hurts people. But it frustrates me to see religions that are even bigger problems than Scientology, but more accepted.

And it so frustrates me that I get generalized with a portion of the religion that I am not related to.

Shaun of the Living wrote: It might seem like that because I usually come on here when I’m in the mood for a serious debate. If I was in the mood for being a dumbass I’d go on 4chan...

So picky.

You should be in the mood for a serious debate when there is one, but whatever, it’s always fun with you since you’re not an easy one to argue with and you’re as rational as they get.

Haruhi demands you join Anime United!

Sorry for the slow reply. I doubt you’ll reply at all, but whatever.

RageOverdose wrote: But not all of these are intrinsic values. Paying money seems to be.

The fact that people aren’t following all of Christianity’s impossibly high values doesn’t mean it’s not significantly influencing them to be intolerant and scientifically ignorant.

RageOverdose wrote: Well, when I think about it, it doesn’t have to be (I’m not sure if it’s stated in the book), but people are convinced as such it seems.

L Ron Hubbard was a science fiction author who wanted to control people and take their money. I’m not denying that. I’m just saying, there are things Christianity and Islam support which are a LOT worse and you’re being a hypocrite by not opposing them.

RageOverdose wrote: The religion isn’t intrinsically bad.

How could it not be if it’s clearly a brainwashing scam to rip people off?!?

RageOverdose wrote: In this day an age, I don’t see why people can’t conform to the principles of these religions by taking the time to figure how to integrate them into modern society.

Christianity is a 2000 year old Jewish death cult, it has no place in modern society. Islam is a 1400 year old Middle Eastern death cult, it has no place in modern society. Scientology is an outright lie invented by a science fiction writer which drills a hole in people’s brains and their wallets, it has no place in modern society.

These things are evil at heart, no matter what their followers interpret them as, there will always be an underlying subtext of ignorance and cruelty which will continue to influence people. If they ceased to be evil, they would no longer be the original religion anymore. In fact, even if you took out all the shit about killing atheists, pagans and gay people out of Christianity and Islam, they would still support the illogical idea that an invisible spirit is responsible for everything we humans can’t explain, which would continue to hinder the scientific progress of humanity because people wouldn’t want to accept contradicting evidence and logic that rejects their God’s existence.

RageOverdose wrote: And on the issue of homosexuality, it’s not only religion that treats it negatively.

Yeah, so do Nazis and the KKK. And they’re equally and bigoted and wrong.

RageOverdose wrote: And besides, the approval of homosexuality is over 50% in the US, so if we are really causing problems, it probably isn’t here as much.

It’s still a fairly big issue, but there are others Christianity causes. Overall these problems are growing smaller, but then again, so is religious belief.

RageOverdose wrote: And even then, not all Christians view they should take action on homosexuality; some feel it is best to let it take it’s course, regardless of if they disagree or not because it isn’t their place to judge.

That’s a good opinion to have, and I don’t hate those kinds of followers. But the Bible and Koran will still have violent and intolerant undertones that will rise again eventually if people continue to think of them as the word of God. And if you want to take those passages out, then you can’t call it the 'word of God' anymore, can you?

RageOverdose wrote: I also don’t follow most of the points you mentioned in as why a secular world would be a better place.

Elaborate.

RageOverdose wrote: And freedom of speech is a problem outside of religion, mostly.

I’m aware of that, but it’s still a PART of the problem because it often correlates with convservative social values.

RageOverdose wrote: Then again, so many people want to remove the subject of Intelligent Design, which is also a hit against freedom of speech, whether or not it’s wrong information is irrelevant

Whether it’s correct or not is relevant when it comes to the public education system. You would not teach students that the Earth is flat in geography, you would not teach them that 2 2=5 in maths, likewise, you should not teach them that all species on Earth were spontaneously created by a supernatural entity with absolutely no evidence to verify his existence. It’s ridiculous.

RageOverdose wrote: (and with our growing nature of digital technology and genetic manipulation, I wouldn’t say it’s so far off either, although, it doesn’t have to be attributed to a deity).

The theory of evolution is not doubted by any serious modern biologist. Honestly, move on.

RageOverdose wrote: You do have a point.

Same can be said of anyone with any sort of culture.

The fact that it’s harder to recognize Christianity is bullshit doesn’t people from accepting it for emotional reasons when presented with overwhelming evidence for why it is false.

RageOverdose wrote: Thing is, as I noted, there is a veil of uncertainty that goes along with the Bible and any related works (apocrypha). We don’t know the exact nature of where these came from or why they were written. That allows people to tie themselves to a probability that it is true. Of course, it may not be, but I say “Why not," especially if it would just be easier to do so.

That’s absurd. You can’t go around believing what you want and call yourself rational when there’s absolutely no proof for it. And it ceases to be probable when there’s plenty of evidence against it. That’s denial, not to mention shifting the burden of proof.

RageOverdose wrote: No, the religions are not. The people running them with ulterior motives are. Same with Scientology.

Religion affects how people think. The closer they adhere to it, the more bullshit it will fill their heads with, but so long as they have some form of dedication to it it will have an effect on them, however minor.

RageOverdose wrote: If I had a bunch of atheists beating me up somewhere, should I blame it on atheism? No, because there are atheists who are pacifistic and others that wouldn’t harm someone for stupid reasons.

You’re not making the distinction between an ideology and people who claim to adhere to it. I am not saying the followers of religion are always bad, but their religions are.

Atheism is not an ideology. It is merely a disbelief in God. Therefore, even if an atheist killed someone for being religious, it could not be fairly attributed to atheism because atheism is morally and politically neutral. Christianity, Islam and Scientology have their own beliefs, teachings and commandments which can, and DO support injustice.

RageOverdose wrote: While Christianity has influenced just about all aspects of western culture (good and bad),

Far, far more bad than good.

RageOverdose wrote: it continues to change because interpretations change.

The religion stays the same no matter what people think of it. Only a moron would interpret “Put _____ to death” and “Strike off the heads of the disbelievers” etc. as symbolism.

RageOverdose wrote: Some could argue they’re more accurate, others could say they are just more relevant.

And it wouldn’t make a shit of a difference to the meaning of the texts, which are in parts obviously evil or stupid and NOT metaphorical.

RageOverdose wrote: I don’t see why you promote removal of ALL Christianity when you could just try to find a way to remove the bad kind.

It’s bad in it’s true form. Even if everyone misinterpreted it as tolerant and peaceful and it’s wickedness ceased to be a problem, it would still be a problem because it encourages stupidity. To remove the stupidity, you would have to take out God, Adam and Eve, the part with Moses, Noah’s Ark, Satan, Jesus, Heaven and Hell and basically much everything else, because it’s all retarded. At which point, it would pretty much cease to be fucking Christianity now, wouldn’t it?

RageOverdose wrote: Sounds dodgy.

Just because it’s minor doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be taken care of. This is irrelevant anyway. If all people focused on the same problems, many things would never be fixed.

I’m not saying we shouldn’t campaign against the ignorance and lies of Scientology, but your hypocrisy when it comes to doing the same for other beliefs pisses me off. They’re just as bad, if not worse.

RageOverdose wrote: And it so frustrates me that I get generalized with a portion of the religion that I am not related to.

I’m not saying you support the actual murder, sexism, homophobia and Jewish Supremacy in the Bible... but you’re not a true Christian, like most others who claim the same thing. However, its anti-intellectualism still influences you to be irrational on several issues, if to a lesser degree thant he average pseudo-christian.

RageOverdose wrote: So picky.

You or me?

RageOverdose wrote: You should be in the mood for a serious debate when there is one, but whatever, it’s always fun with you since you’re not an easy one to argue with and you’re as rational as they get.

Thanks... I think....

Imma just gonna sit back and watch this one, mmk?

Religion is an outdated substitute for meteorology.

it’s intolerance...but informed intolerance XD