Perfection and omnipotent

Gplex wrote:

derdev789 wrote:

Gplex wrote:

Count Bleck wrote: That is my point dude, it is logically impossible for us to comprehend. I would say it is impossible. But if something logically impossible existed, then doing the logically impossible is not something out of the question. Correct?

If you ARE the logically impossible then you are not bound by logic. It’s weird using logic to say we can’t bind it by logic, but you are using logic to say that it is logically impossible. But whatever, it’s just confusing.

Translation. If god exist, then he must exist, so god must exist. - Im not assuming that this is your possition, but these argument fail.
No, I can use logic to show how illogical 2+2=5 is.

I can use logic to show that in a base 5 counting scale consisting of 0,1,2,3 and 5 that 2+2=5

Do I really have to state base 10 maths? Do I really have to state that meaning of every word that I wrote? Didnt think so.

You said that you can prove how illogical 2+2=5 is. I was merely providing a counter-example. That’s the very essence of proving something to be false, the existence of a counter-example. Ergo, I proved your example to be inconsistent with reality.

THE KING HAS RETURNED!

Gplex wrote:

Tyreaus Dreacon wrote:

Gplex wrote:
Sorry you seem to be willing to not take the finally step to acknowledge that in this universe, you are unable to do everything.

Unless the context of this universe were to be rewritten, of course.

Do you not see the flaw of your argument. You know that in this universe omnipotents is impossible, but that means omnipotents is impossible. Because if something was omnipotent, it would be able to be omnipotent anywhere.

It would also be able to change this universe, neverminding our understanding of this universe is still not infinite and our perception of it is only in three dimensions.
-shrugs-
If you can’t get a peg into a hole, make the hole bigger. The hole is still a hole, it’s in the same location, and it’s still the same hole. We can still call it that hole.

Gplex wrote:

derdev789 wrote: And you seem unwilling to accept that in this universe you can’t know everything. Both of you are screwed.

Arguements from igonrant doesn’t prove anything.

Because I tell you that you are incapable of knowing everything, that means that I am ignorant? Far be it from me to disagree with logic like that, obviously if you think yourself capable of grasping all logic in the universe you are greater than anyone else on this website.

THE KING HAS RETURNED!

Count Bleck wrote:

Gplex wrote:

Count Bleck wrote: That is my point dude, it is logically impossible for us to comprehend. I would say it is impossible. But if something logically impossible existed, then doing the logically impossible is not something out of the question. Correct?

If you ARE the logically impossible then you are not bound by logic. It’s weird using logic to say we can’t bind it by logic, but you are using logic to say that it is logically impossible. But whatever, it’s just confusing.

Translation. If god exist, then he must exist, so god must exist. - Im not assuming that this is your possition, but these argument fail.
No, I can use logic to show how illogical 2+2=5 is.

Well not exactly what I was meaning to say, but the translation is just logic cannot bind illogic(Omnipotence) so anything that logic says is impossible(2+2=5,omnipotence, zero sides triangle) is possible for illogic.

No... it is illogical meaning it is impossible.

Cid wrote: You flame religions and its followers without even considering their side of the story. You’re not much different from Hitler with his extermination of the jews

derdev789 wrote:

Gplex wrote:

derdev789 wrote: And you seem unwilling to accept that in this universe you can’t know everything. Both of you are screwed.

Arguements from igonrant doesn’t prove anything.

Because I tell you that you are incapable of knowing everything, that means that I am ignorant? Far be it from me to disagree with logic like that, obviously if you think yourself capable of grasping all logic in the universe you are greater than anyone else on this website.

The argument from ignorance, also known as argumentum ad ignorantiam (“appeal to ignorance”, argument by lack of imagination, or negative evidence, is a logical fallacy in which it is claimed that a premise is true only because it has not been proven false, or is false only because it has not been proven true.

Cid wrote: You flame religions and its followers without even considering their side of the story. You’re not much different from Hitler with his extermination of the jews

Tyreaus Dreacon wrote:

Gplex wrote:

Tyreaus Dreacon wrote:

Gplex wrote:
Sorry you seem to be willing to not take the finally step to acknowledge that in this universe, you are unable to do everything.

Unless the context of this universe were to be rewritten, of course.

Do you not see the flaw of your argument. You know that in this universe omnipotents is impossible, but that means omnipotents is impossible. Because if something was omnipotent, it would be able to be omnipotent anywhere.

It would also be able to change this universe, neverminding our understanding of this universe is still not infinite and our perception of it is only in three dimensions.
-shrugs-
If you can’t get a peg into a hole, make the hole bigger. The hole is still a hole, it’s in the same location, and it’s still the same hole. We can still call it that hole.

4 dimensions. Again, a omnipotent being would be able to fit a peg in the hole without changing the size of the peg or the hole.

Cid wrote: You flame religions and its followers without even considering their side of the story. You’re not much different from Hitler with his extermination of the jews

derdev789 wrote: You said that you can prove how illogical 2 2=5 is. I was merely providing a counter-example. That’s the very essence of proving something to be false, the existence of a counter-example. Ergo, I proved your example to be inconsistent with reality.

No its not a counter example, its playing word games with me.

Cid wrote: You flame religions and its followers without even considering their side of the story. You’re not much different from Hitler with his extermination of the jews

Gplex wrote:

Tyreaus Dreacon wrote:

Gplex wrote:

Tyreaus Dreacon wrote:

Gplex wrote:
Sorry you seem to be willing to not take the finally step to acknowledge that in this universe, you are unable to do everything.

Unless the context of this universe were to be rewritten, of course.

Do you not see the flaw of your argument. You know that in this universe omnipotents is impossible, but that means omnipotents is impossible. Because if something was omnipotent, it would be able to be omnipotent anywhere.

It would also be able to change this universe, neverminding our understanding of this universe is still not infinite and our perception of it is only in three dimensions.
-shrugs-
If you can’t get a peg into a hole, make the hole bigger. The hole is still a hole, it’s in the same location, and it’s still the same hole. We can still call it that hole.

4 dimensions. Again, a omnipotent being would be able to fit a peg in the hole without changing the size of the peg or the hole.

Omnipotent meant able to do anything, right?
I must have missed a part in the dictionary that said it also included specific methods in that it has to do it with stipulations.

Tyreaus Dreacon wrote: Omnipotent meant able to do anything, right?
I must have missed a part in the dictionary that said it also included specific methods in that it has to do it with stipulations.

Unlimited power.. yes anything. I dont understand your second paragraph.

Cid wrote: You flame religions and its followers without even considering their side of the story. You’re not much different from Hitler with his extermination of the jews

GAH

If something can do anything, then it can do anything! End of discussion!

I am, Forever Gone.

“I am become Death, the Destroyer of Worlds”

Quadruple post. That’s waaaay against the rules Gplex. Be glad a mod isn’t around.

1. I’m not claiming it’s true because it can’t be proven false, you’d know that if you actually took the time to read my post. I’m simply asserting that there will be no point in time where every part of our universe is known, either through contraction or retraction our universe is an infinately growing organism and there will never come a point where it can be entirely explored and understood. Your claims are based in the mentality that humanity can and will reach a point where we can answer every question, but that is simply not true.

2. It’s the very definition of a counter example. I showed you something that proved the assertion you made to be in-correct. If you want to talk to me about word games I can play plenty of those with you as well, but for now I am going to stick with the laws of mathematics, which you didn’t at the time know you were attempting to violate. I corrected your mistake and you refused to accept it, that’s your problem not mine.

THE KING HAS RETURNED!

Kagrenac wrote: GAH

If something can do anything, then it can do anything! End of discussion!

If you dont want to debate, why are you here?

Cid wrote: You flame religions and its followers without even considering their side of the story. You’re not much different from Hitler with his extermination of the jews

Gplex wrote:

Tyreaus Dreacon wrote: Omnipotent meant able to do anything, right?
I must have missed a part in the dictionary that said it also included specific methods in that it has to do it with stipulations.

Unlimited power.. yes anything. I dont understand your second paragraph.

Basically, omnipotence meant it is able to do anything, right?
I’ve never, personally, seen any sort of thing saying that it had to be in a certain way, or even anything mentioning methods.

derdev789 wrote: Quadruple post. That’s waaaay against the rules Gplex. Be glad a mod isn’t around.

1. I’m not claiming it’s true because it can’t be proven false, you’d know that if you actually took the time to read my post. I’m simply asserting that there will be no point in time where every part of our universe is known, either through contraction or retraction our universe is an infinately growing organism and there will never come a point where it can be entirely explored and understood. Your claims are based in the mentality that humanity can and will reach a point where we can answer every question, but that is simply not true.

2. It’s the very definition of a counter example. I showed you something that proved the assertion you made to be in-correct. If you want to talk to me about word games I can play plenty of those with you as well, but for now I am going to stick with the laws of mathematics, which you didn’t at the time know you were attempting to violate. I corrected your mistake and you refused to accept it, that’s your problem not mine.

Well I got 5 people debating me at once... Im sure the mods are not unreasonable people. Except of that cid.. I said I wanted to educated everyone on the planet, and he turn that into, I want ot kill religious people.
How does not knowing what is happening on the other side of the galaxy in real time (in human terms) prve that you can create a rock that you can and can not lift?
What are you saying, that a omnipotent being can not violate the laws of mathematics?

Cid wrote: You flame religions and its followers without even considering their side of the story. You’re not much different from Hitler with his extermination of the jews

Tyreaus Dreacon wrote:

Gplex wrote:

Tyreaus Dreacon wrote: Omnipotent meant able to do anything, right?
I must have missed a part in the dictionary that said it also included specific methods in that it has to do it with stipulations.

Unlimited power.. yes anything. I dont understand your second paragraph.

Basically, omnipotence meant it is able to do anything, right?
I’ve never, personally, seen any sort of thing saying that it had to be in a certain way, or even anything mentioning methods.

It can do anything.. meaning It can do everything at once, such as creating a stone it can not lift, and lifting the stone it created so heavy that is shouldn’t be able to lift it.

Cid wrote: You flame religions and its followers without even considering their side of the story. You’re not much different from Hitler with his extermination of the jews

Gplex wrote:

Tyreaus Dreacon wrote:

Gplex wrote:

Tyreaus Dreacon wrote: Omnipotent meant able to do anything, right?
I must have missed a part in the dictionary that said it also included specific methods in that it has to do it with stipulations.

Unlimited power.. yes anything. I dont understand your second paragraph.

Basically, omnipotence meant it is able to do anything, right?
I’ve never, personally, seen any sort of thing saying that it had to be in a certain way, or even anything mentioning methods.

It can do anything.. meaning It can do everything at once, such as creating a stone it can not lift, and lifting the stone it created so heavy that is shouldn’t be able to lift it.

And if it changes the laws of physics, it can do that within our observable universe without creating a paradox.
If I’m told to pick up a bucket, and I take the things out of the bucket to allow me to pick it up, I am still doing what is asked of me.
If it is able to do anything, why is it all of a sudden not allowed to do one thing?

Gplex wrote:

derdev789 wrote: Quadruple post. That’s waaaay against the rules Gplex. Be glad a mod isn’t around.

1. I’m not claiming it’s true because it can’t be proven false, you’d know that if you actually took the time to read my post. I’m simply asserting that there will be no point in time where every part of our universe is known, either through contraction or retraction our universe is an infinately growing organism and there will never come a point where it can be entirely explored and understood. Your claims are based in the mentality that humanity can and will reach a point where we can answer every question, but that is simply not true.

2. It’s the very definition of a counter example. I showed you something that proved the assertion you made to be in-correct. If you want to talk to me about word games I can play plenty of those with you as well, but for now I am going to stick with the laws of mathematics, which you didn’t at the time know you were attempting to violate. I corrected your mistake and you refused to accept it, that’s your problem not mine.

Well I got 5 people debating me at once... Im sure the mods are not unreasonable people. Except of that cid.. I said I wanted to educated everyone on the planet, and he turn that into, I want ot kill religious people.
How does not knowing what is happening on the other side of the galaxy in real time (in human terms) prve that you can create a rock that you can and can not lift?
What are you saying, that a omnipotent being can not violate the laws of mathematics?

Actually, what I’m saying is that the scope of our understanding is limited to a three dimensional world in which we literally live inside of our cubic universe. If you are trying to argue about a deity, the first major point you should understand that this deity is going to be an upper dimensional being that can manipulate our universe in the same way that we manipulate a piece of paper. If you’ve ever heard of string theory, that might help you understand what I’m talking about. The reason he can preform these logical impossibilities, is because as a 4th dimensional being he can move through and around our universe such that things may become more and less massive by making use of 4th dimensional space. Any upper dimensional being would, while not technically be opposing, seem to violate the laws which govern our existence, they could move in directions that our 3 dimensional brain’s cannot even begin to fathom and what to an upper dimensional being is a simple action, to us is a 'miracle' of sorts. I estimate that any deity being, on the scale used by most religions, would exist in the 7th or 8th dimension, utilizing time as there 4th and additional area’s of movement as there 5th, 6th and 7th. What is raising the dead to a being like this other than simply dragging the corpse backwards through time to a point where it is alive? For that matter, what is creating a black hole other than punching a 'hole' through our universe in the same way that we poke a hole through the 2nd dimensional planes we commonly refer to as paper?

THE KING HAS RETURNED!

Tyreaus Dreacon wrote: And if it changes the laws of physics, it can do that within our observable universe without creating a paradox.
If I’m told to pick up a bucket, and I take the things out of the bucket to allow me to pick it up, I am still doing what is asked of me.
If it is able to do anything, why is it all of a sudden not allowed to do one thing?

So instead of being able to do anything, it will find a way to do it through trickery?
Why can it not do it in the context of this universe?

Cid wrote: You flame religions and its followers without even considering their side of the story. You’re not much different from Hitler with his extermination of the jews

Gplex wrote:

Tyreaus Dreacon wrote: And if it changes the laws of physics, it can do that within our observable universe without creating a paradox.
If I’m told to pick up a bucket, and I take the things out of the bucket to allow me to pick it up, I am still doing what is asked of me.
If it is able to do anything, why is it all of a sudden not allowed to do one thing?

So instead of being able to do anything, it will find a way to do it through trickery?
Why can it not do it in the context of this universe?

We would then be unable to perceive it because of our brains anyway.
Besides, we, as humans, are basically trying to make the situation “trickery” to begin with, as if I were to be told to pick up a glass without touching it.
Which, I also must note, we do simplify many things that are much more complex. In the context of picking up a glass, I am told to have picked up the glass, even though I had actually commanded my limbs to do such. Theoretically, one could apply a similar principle to an omnipotent being and doing these paradoxical things within our universe. (commanding the universe to bend to it’s will and allow it to do such a thing)
That just came to me, though.

edited