Somebody Convince me to belive in god

Sheogorath Worshiper wrote:

Shaun of the Living wrote:

Sheogorath Worshiper wrote:

Shaun of the Living wrote:

Sheogorath Worshiper wrote: But due to the fact that man has free will God dose not force us to serve him. We have to willingly serve him.

People can’t have free will.
If an event has a cause, then it was forced. No choice, something else made it happen.
If an event has no cause, then it was random. That’s not a choice, that’s just chance. Could have turned out any other way.

Even if free will does exist (it doesn’t), is telling someone; “If you don’t love me you’ll be tortured forever." really giving them a choice? Seems like a threat to me.
Furthermore, could we be blamed for saying no? If I said “Marry me or die” to a random girl I met down the street, would it be her fault if she rejected me and got raped? After all, she chose to say no.

Ooooooooooooooooooh, I italicized the word 'chose'!

What did you have for lunch today?

A burrito. Now, address my points or die.

there, my point is that, you ate teh burrito when you could have had something else

What if god made him eat a burrito?

Shaun of the Living wrote:

Sheogorath Worshiper wrote: But due to the fact that man has free will God dose not force us to serve him. We have to willingly serve him.

People can’t have free will.
If an event has a cause, then it was forced. No choice, something else made it happen.
If an event has no cause, then it was random. That’s not a choice, that’s just chance. Could have turned out any other way.

Even if free will does exist (it doesn’t), is telling someone; “If you don’t love me you’ll be tortured forever." really giving them a choice? Seems like a threat to me.
Furthermore, could we be blamed for saying no? If I said “Marry me or die” to a random girl I met down the street, would it be her fault if she rejected me and got raped? After all, she chose to say no.

Ooooooooooooooooooh, I italicized the word 'chose'!

Nothing is just black and white like you have discribed there are still many options to take. No offence but anyone that doesnt believe in free will has some issues in logic

pola wrote:

Shaun of the Living wrote:

Sheogorath Worshiper wrote: But due to the fact that man has free will God dose not force us to serve him. We have to willingly serve him.

People can’t have free will.
If an event has a cause, then it was forced. No choice, something else made it happen.
If an event has no cause, then it was random. That’s not a choice, that’s just chance. Could have turned out any other way.

Even if free will does exist (it doesn’t), is telling someone; “If you don’t love me you’ll be tortured forever." really giving them a choice? Seems like a threat to me.
Furthermore, could we be blamed for saying no? If I said “Marry me or die” to a random girl I met down the street, would it be her fault if she rejected me and got raped? After all, she chose to say no.

Ooooooooooooooooooh, I italicized the word 'chose'!

Nothing is just black and white like you have discribed there are still many options to take. No offence but anyone that doesnt believe in free will has some issues in logic

Or they just think for themselves.

Saosin wrote:

pola wrote:

Shaun of the Living wrote:

Sheogorath Worshiper wrote: But due to the fact that man has free will God dose not force us to serve him. We have to willingly serve him.

People can’t have free will.
If an event has a cause, then it was forced. No choice, something else made it happen.
If an event has no cause, then it was random. That’s not a choice, that’s just chance. Could have turned out any other way.

Even if free will does exist (it doesn’t), is telling someone; “If you don’t love me you’ll be tortured forever." really giving them a choice? Seems like a threat to me.
Furthermore, could we be blamed for saying no? If I said “Marry me or die” to a random girl I met down the street, would it be her fault if she rejected me and got raped? After all, she chose to say no.

Ooooooooooooooooooh, I italicized the word 'chose'!

Nothing is just black and white like you have discribed there are still many options to take. No offence but anyone that doesnt believe in free will has some issues in logic

Or they just think for themselves.

Thinking for yourself is free will

And why the fuck should I do that?

Do you want to burn in the fire for eternity?

Start believing!

... Actually, nevermind. Just burn. So much easier.

Antisocial wrote: Do you want to burn in the fire for eternity?

Start believing!

... Actually, nevermind. Just burn. So much easier.

You better start believing in the FSM as well unless you want to be boiled over and over for all of time.

Cid wrote: You flame religions and its followers without even considering their side of the story. You’re not much different from Hitler with his extermination of the jews

Sheogorath Worshiper wrote:

Shaun of the Living wrote:

Sheogorath Worshiper wrote:

Shaun of the Living wrote:

Sheogorath Worshiper wrote: But due to the fact that man has free will God dose not force us to serve him. We have to willingly serve him.

People can’t have free will.
If an event has a cause, then it was forced. No choice, something else made it happen.
If an event has no cause, then it was random. That’s not a choice, that’s just chance. Could have turned out any other way.

Even if free will does exist (it doesn’t), is telling someone; “If you don’t love me you’ll be tortured forever." really giving them a choice? Seems like a threat to me.
Furthermore, could we be blamed for saying no? If I said “Marry me or die” to a random girl I met down the street, would it be her fault if she rejected me and got raped? After all, she chose to say no.

Ooooooooooooooooooh, I italicized the word 'chose'!

What did you have for lunch today?

A burrito. Now, address my points or die.

there, my point is that, you ate teh burrito when you could have had something else

Yes, but the fact that I chose a specific decision doesn’t mean that my decision was made without being caused by external forces. That’s bad psychology. There were reasons I did it; I like the taste, the shop was within walking distance and the food is cheap. All of these things that apply to me added up in my brain and made me feel that I would get more enjoyment from eating the burrito than from eating something else or eating nothing at all. Even if I had chosen a different option, there would be a cause for it. If I was offered slightly better tasting food for a higher price, my brain would have done the exact same thing; weighed the pros and cons between having good food and having to spend more money on it. If my brain decided better taste was more important, I would have gone for the more expensive food. If I was a cheap ass who just wanted to eat something and didn’t really care about the taste, I would have still gone with the burrito, or something cheaper. Even if I rationally didn’t think picking another food or no food was worth it, some external variable would have made me pick that option. Like forcing myself to eat something I don’t really want to, because I will seem like I can control my own thoughts and desires, even though really it would just mean I prefer the comfort of illusionary self control more than good food.

You’re throwing all consideration of unknown variables that affect our behaviour out the window.

pola wrote: Nothing is just black and white like you have discribed there are still many options to take.

Again, you’re just saying I’m wrong without any decent explanation of why, just like ever other reply you’ve ever given me. So I guess two plus two can equal four, but somehow simeltaneously not equal four? Bah, sounds like bullshit to me. Something has a cause or it doesn’t, it can’t have and not have a cause. It’s basic logic, not fallacious black and white reasoning.

pola wrote: No offence but anyone that doesnt believe in free will has some issues in logic

You have no clue what the fuck you’re talking about.

pola wrote: Thinking for yourself is free will

Nobody thinks for themselves. Even if you come up with an idea nobody else has thought of, your imagination simply combined different stimulus it had experienced into a new fusion, instead of something completely new. After all, none of us can imagine what a completely new type of sensory perception would be like without experiencing it.

HEV_tux wrote: I am a man who is going through tough times as we all are, and i have been “believing” in god for a while, but i have realized i have only been pretending to nobody other than myself that i believe in god and that is useless.

My questions do not arise from science disproving god and things like, i have heard those things are a test of faith.

My question is: why would anyone go to hell?

I consider myself a good person, i have volunteered in less fortunate parts of the world to help them via my youth group. I have never truely beaten up another man and i have never done drugs despite hanging out with people who do.

But i do like violent movies and vidoe games, i enjoy heavy metal, and i masturbate. I could pretend i dont like these things, i could ignore them completly but that does not change the fact that i do like them... what would god think of this?

If god created me didnt he also create what i like? and if what i like is determined by what is on earth than would it be my parents fault? and whos fault would that be? their parents fault? going all the way back to cain and abel?

what about the people of other religions? why dont they get into heaven? the only reason they believe in another god is because they were borne into a place where people believe in another god and wouldnt the christian god have chosen to put them their?

What about people who preform misdeads? most of them preform misdeads because they are desperate and cannot make it for their family, and if someone is just naturaly violent didnt god just make them that way?


Please read all my points before yelling at me...
I just dont understand, please help me

They don’t.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 (New International Version)

5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten

God would be pretty messed if he sent people to burn forever in hell. FYI the ancient Israelites didn’t believe in hellfire.

pola wrote:

Shaun of the Living wrote:

Sheogorath Worshiper wrote: But due to the fact that man has free will God dose not force us to serve him. We have to willingly serve him.

People can’t have free will.
If an event has a cause, then it was forced. No choice, something else made it happen.
If an event has no cause, then it was random. That’s not a choice, that’s just chance. Could have turned out any other way.

Even if free will does exist (it doesn’t), is telling someone; “If you don’t love me you’ll be tortured forever." really giving them a choice? Seems like a threat to me.
Furthermore, could we be blamed for saying no? If I said “Marry me or die” to a random girl I met down the street, would it be her fault if she rejected me and got raped? After all, she chose to say no.

Ooooooooooooooooooh, I italicized the word 'chose'!

Nothing is just black and white like you have discribed there are still many options to take. No offence but anyone that doesnt believe in free will has some issues in logic

Lmao! Logic....What is logical about talking snakes that were cursed to roam the land on their stomachs? How did “serpents” get around before they were cursed? Oh, also there is a lot of logic in a boat that housed all the animals and people being turned into pillars of salt...In the context of christianity there is no free will...God already knows whats going to happen, so my “choice” isn’t really a choice at all.

“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." Stephen F. Roberts

riptorn311 wrote:

pola wrote:

Shaun of the Living wrote:

Sheogorath Worshiper wrote: But due to the fact that man has free will God dose not force us to serve him. We have to willingly serve him.

People can’t have free will.
If an event has a cause, then it was forced. No choice, something else made it happen.
If an event has no cause, then it was random. That’s not a choice, that’s just chance. Could have turned out any other way.

Even if free will does exist (it doesn’t), is telling someone; “If you don’t love me you’ll be tortured forever." really giving them a choice? Seems like a threat to me.
Furthermore, could we be blamed for saying no? If I said “Marry me or die” to a random girl I met down the street, would it be her fault if she rejected me and got raped? After all, she chose to say no.

Ooooooooooooooooooh, I italicized the word 'chose'!

Nothing is just black and white like you have discribed there are still many options to take. No offence but anyone that doesnt believe in free will has some issues in logic

Lmao! Logic....What is logical about talking snakes that were cursed to roam the land on their stomachs? How did “serpents” get around before they were cursed? Oh, also there is a lot of logic in a boat that housed all the animals and people being turned into pillars of salt...In the context of christianity there is no free will...God already knows whats going to happen, so my “choice” isn’t really a choice at all.

No offence but why did you quote me?? Do you not believe that you have free will to?? I really dont get people here.

Shaun of the Living wrote:

Sheogorath Worshiper wrote:

Shaun of the Living wrote:

Sheogorath Worshiper wrote:

Shaun of the Living wrote:

Sheogorath Worshiper wrote: But due to the fact that man has free will God dose not force us to serve him. We have to willingly serve him.

People can’t have free will.
If an event has a cause, then it was forced. No choice, something else made it happen.
If an event has no cause, then it was random. That’s not a choice, that’s just chance. Could have turned out any other way.

Even if free will does exist (it doesn’t), is telling someone; “If you don’t love me you’ll be tortured forever." really giving them a choice? Seems like a threat to me.
Furthermore, could we be blamed for saying no? If I said “Marry me or die” to a random girl I met down the street, would it be her fault if she rejected me and got raped? After all, she chose to say no.

Ooooooooooooooooooh, I italicized the word 'chose'!

What did you have for lunch today?

A burrito. Now, address my points or die.

there, my point is that, you ate teh burrito when you could have had something else

Yes, but the fact that I chose a specific decision doesn’t mean that my decision was made without being caused by external forces. That’s bad psychology. There were reasons I did it; I like the taste, the shop was within walking distance and the food is cheap. All of these things that apply to me added up in my brain and made me feel that I would get more enjoyment from eating the burrito than from eating something else or eating nothing at all. Even if I had chosen a different option, there would be a cause for it. If I was offered slightly better tasting food for a higher price, my brain would have done the exact same thing; weighed the pros and cons between having good food and having to spend more money on it. If my brain decided better taste was more important, I would have gone for the more expensive food. If I was a cheap ass who just wanted to eat something and didn’t really care about the taste, I would have still gone with the burrito, or something cheaper. Even if I rationally didn’t think picking another food or no food was worth it, some external variable would have made me pick that option. Like forcing myself to eat something I don’t really want to, because I will seem like I can control my own thoughts and desires, even though really it would just mean I prefer the comfort of illusionary self control more than good food.

You’re throwing all consideration of unknown variables that affect our behaviour out the window.

pola wrote: Nothing is just black and white like you have discribed there are still many options to take.

Again, you’re just saying I’m wrong without any decent explanation of why, just like ever other reply you’ve ever given me. So I guess two plus two can equal four, but somehow simeltaneously not equal four? Bah, sounds like bullshit to me. Something has a cause or it doesn’t, it can’t have and not have a cause. It’s basic logic, not fallacious black and white reasoning.

pola wrote: No offence but anyone that doesnt believe in free will has some issues in logic

You have no clue what the fuck you’re talking about.

pola wrote: Thinking for yourself is free will

Nobody thinks for themselves. Even if you come up with an idea nobody else has thought of, your imagination simply combined different stimulus it had experienced into a new fusion, instead of something completely new. After all, none of us can imagine what a completely new type of sensory perception would be like without experiencing it.

Just keep going i cant stop lol

Shaun of the Living wrote:

Sheogorath Worshiper wrote:

Shaun of the Living wrote:

Sheogorath Worshiper wrote:

Shaun of the Living wrote:

Sheogorath Worshiper wrote: But due to the fact that man has free will God dose not force us to serve him. We have to willingly serve him.

People can’t have free will.
If an event has a cause, then it was forced. No choice, something else made it happen.
If an event has no cause, then it was random. That’s not a choice, that’s just chance. Could have turned out any other way.

Even if free will does exist (it doesn’t), is telling someone; “If you don’t love me you’ll be tortured forever." really giving them a choice? Seems like a threat to me.
Furthermore, could we be blamed for saying no? If I said “Marry me or die” to a random girl I met down the street, would it be her fault if she rejected me and got raped? After all, she chose to say no.

Ooooooooooooooooooh, I italicized the word 'chose'!

What did you have for lunch today?

A burrito. Now, address my points or die.

there, my point is that, you ate teh burrito when you could have had something else

Yes, but the fact that I chose a specific decision doesn’t mean that my decision was made without being caused by external forces. That’s bad psychology. There were reasons I did it; I like the taste, the shop was within walking distance and the food is cheap. All of these things that apply to me added up in my brain and made me feel that I would get more enjoyment from eating the burrito than from eating something else or eating nothing at all. Even if I had chosen a different option, there would be a cause for it. If I was offered slightly better tasting food for a higher price, my brain would have done the exact same thing; weighed the pros and cons between having good food and having to spend more money on it. If my brain decided better taste was more important, I would have gone for the more expensive food. If I was a cheap ass who just wanted to eat something and didn’t really care about the taste, I would have still gone with the burrito, or something cheaper. Even if I rationally didn’t think picking another food or no food was worth it, some external variable would have made me pick that option. Like forcing myself to eat something I don’t really want to, because I will seem like I can control my own thoughts and desires, even though really it would just mean I prefer the comfort of illusionary self control more than good food.

You’re throwing all consideration of unknown variables that affect our behaviour out the window.

pola wrote: Nothing is just black and white like you have discribed there are still many options to take.

Again, you’re just saying I’m wrong without any decent explanation of why, just like ever other reply you’ve ever given me. So I guess two plus two can equal four, but somehow simeltaneously not equal four? Bah, sounds like bullshit to me. Something has a cause or it doesn’t, it can’t have and not have a cause. It’s basic logic, not fallacious black and white reasoning.

pola wrote: No offence but anyone that doesnt believe in free will has some issues in logic

You have no clue what the fuck you’re talking about.

pola wrote: Thinking for yourself is free will

Nobody thinks for themselves. Even if you come up with an idea nobody else has thought of, your imagination simply combined different stimulus it had experienced into a new fusion, instead of something completely new. After all, none of us can imagine what a completely new type of sensory perception would be like without experiencing it.

Your brain is you, you are your brain. The stimuli you have/exprience is your own and different from everyone else. Our sensory perception is our own to. Though you may have the same perception sensores you do not however perceve things in the same way i do. Just becuase our perception of our surroundings may be a bit limmited that is irrelivent to us having free will.

and besides, if god sends us to hell for not believing in him doesnt that make him guilty of his own sin? Pride?

Sorry if Double posts. Mozilla has a postdata cache, leave me alone.

pola wrote: Your brain is you, you are your brain. The stimuli you have/exprience is your own and different from everyone else. Our sensory perception is our own to. Though you may have the same perception sensores you do not however perceve things in the same way i do. Just becuase our perception of our surroundings may be a bit limmited that is irrelivent to us having free will.

We are not brains, we are our consciousness. We ARE our thoughts and perceptions. Yes, everyone has different perceptions and thoughts, but that’s why we behave differently from one another. If we had no thoughts and perceptions we wouldn’t even exist, which is why our thoughts and perceptions determine who we are and how we make our body behave through our thoughts and reactions.

HEV_tux wrote: and besides, if god sends us to hell for not believing in him doesnt that make him guilty of his own sin? Pride?

Haven’t you heard god can’t sin. He can lie, cheat, rape, murder do pretty much anything it wants and it’s not a sin.

Cid wrote: You flame religions and its followers without even considering their side of the story. You’re not much different from Hitler with his extermination of the jews

Shaun of the Living wrote:

pola wrote: Your brain is you, you are your brain. The stimuli you have/exprience is your own and different from everyone else. Our sensory perception is our own to. Though you may have the same perception sensores you do not however perceve things in the same way i do. Just becuase our perception of our surroundings may be a bit limmited that is irrelivent to us having free will.

We are not brains, we are our consciousness. We ARE our thoughts and perceptions. Yes, everyone has different perceptions and thoughts, but that’s why we behave differently from one another. If we had no thoughts and perceptions we wouldn’t even exist, which is why our thoughts and perceptions determine who we are and how we make our body behave through our thoughts and reactions.

A good way to think of it is our bodies are made up of many many many single cell organisms, and they are all working together in a gigantic colony harmoniously. Each dedicating itself to a different, specific function for the joint good of all of it’s counter parts, quite similarly to colonies of algae. One group dedicated to reproduction, another dedicated to consuming nutrients, etc... Specialized cells function better their one job than multi-jobbed cells, and thus the colony gains. It also allowed them to be larger (as a unit) and therefore harder to eat and better protected. Also, working together allowed them to do things a single algae could not, like dedicating and entire group to specialize in swimming.

The point being, is that our consciousness was considered a positive gain in the betterment of our survival. Our “choices” are all derived from the wants and needs of all of our little cells working together to keep us alive and procreating (this being the “Id” factor).

What’s even cooler is that after we have these established monstrously complex multi-cell organisms... we raise the scale and function that way as a society as well. We are more or less a tiny tiny part of a gigantic Superorganism.

pola wrote:

Saosin wrote:

pola wrote:

Shaun of the Living wrote:

Sheogorath Worshiper wrote: But due to the fact that man has free will God dose not force us to serve him. We have to willingly serve him.

People can’t have free will.
If an event has a cause, then it was forced. No choice, something else made it happen.
If an event has no cause, then it was random. That’s not a choice, that’s just chance. Could have turned out any other way.

Even if free will does exist (it doesn’t), is telling someone; “If you don’t love me you’ll be tortured forever." really giving them a choice? Seems like a threat to me.
Furthermore, could we be blamed for saying no? If I said “Marry me or die” to a random girl I met down the street, would it be her fault if she rejected me and got raped? After all, she chose to say no.

Ooooooooooooooooooh, I italicized the word 'chose'!

Nothing is just black and white like you have discribed there are still many options to take. No offence but anyone that doesnt believe in free will has some issues in logic

Or they just think for themselves.

Thinking for yourself is free will

Unless someone or something else made us think that and we just dont know it.

HEV_tux wrote: and besides, if god sends us to hell for not believing in him doesnt that make him guilty of his own sin? Pride?

He’s omniscient.