| 02 Jul 2009 12:52 pm |
A theist Guest | Khorib wrote:
Giving away everything we own is just impractical. If we gave everything to the poor.. then the poor wouldn’t be so poor anymore, and we would be poor instead... then the poor would have to give back to us because we are now poor....
There’s really not a lot of wisdom in this...
Its supposed to be a system within the Church, almost socialist, like where everyone is giving everything to everyone else. In this no one has too much and no one is lacking
2 Corinthians 8 (NLT)
11 Now you should finish what you started. Let the eagerness you showed in the beginning be matched now by your giving. Give in proportion to what you have. 12 Whatever you give is acceptable if you give it eagerly. And give according to what you have, not what you don’t have. 13 Of course, I don’t mean your giving should make life easy for others and hard for yourselves. I only mean that there should be some equality. 14 Right now you have plenty and can help those who are in need. Later, they will have plenty and can share with you when you need it. In this way, things will be equal.
15 As the Scriptures say,
“Those who gathered a lot had nothing left over,
and those who gathered only a little had enough.”[d] | | | | 02 Jul 2009 02:05 pm |
Regular Rep: 8  Joined: 27 Apr 2009 Posts: 699 OFFLINE | A theist wrote:
riptorn311 wrote:
A theist wrote:
riptorn311 wrote:
A theist wrote:
riptorn311 wrote:
A theist wrote:
riptorn311 wrote:
A theist wrote:
Actually based on what Christianity teaches selfishness can be (and technically is) the original sin. Ergo you have a lot of verses that teach giving to the poor etc.
Selfishness, the original sin...Masterminded by the king of selfishness...God...
The Biblical God is the only being with the right to be selfish (considering he made it all and its all his) but he really isn’t as selfish as he could be, if God truly was the King of selfishness he wouldn’t be merciful.
@Khorib
Salvation isn’t attained by works. The only thing people need to do to be saved is give their life to Christ, and except him as their lord and savior (that can be interpreted as a selfish act). But doing things like loving your enemy or neighbor and giving to the poor are things Christians are obligated to do once they accept Christ.
I almost have to laugh at god being merciful in the old testament....Genocide anyone??? God killed everyone in the flood except for Noah and his family (some would also say the nephilim survived)...Lots of mercy there..Wheres the mercy in turning people into pillars of salt??? Wheres the mercy when children are stoned to death for being disobedient???
It took Noah 100 years to make the Ark, this may not be entirely based on the canon Bible but its occaisionally taught that Noah was warning the people about what was going to happen and they didn’t listen. The fact that Lot’s wife turned into a pillar of salt was her own fault, God was putting off destroying Sodom and Gommorah for a while, in fact God gave the a place to dwell that wasn’t too far away (he originally told them to go over the mountains, Lot said that was too far so God let them go to Zoar.) And in all that Lot’s wife still had to turn back, talk about pushing your luck  . You have a point when it comes to stoning people, but thank God for Jesus.
Would YOU believe a man building a boat in the middle of the desert???...Of course not. Any rational thinking person would summise that this man is delusional...Saying that god is merciful when he clearly isn’t is also being delusional. 2,301,417 is the number of people god kills in the old testament(not including Noah’s flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the many plagues, famines, etc.)....10 is the number of people Satan kills and even these he shares with God, since God allowed him to do it as a part of a bet( the 7 sons and 3 daughters of Job)... Salvation isn’t attained by works. The only thing people need to do to be saved is give their life to Christ, and except him as their lord and savior ...False statement...Faith without works is dead...And also the 7 other things jesus says to do carry just as much weight as John 3:16...Better start selling or giving away all your stuff..
You didn’t read my whole post....You aren’t saved because the works you do, you do works because your saved. My point is works don’t give salvation, you first must believe in Christ and give you life to him, then once your saved you follow his teachings, like giving all you own to the poor.
People were breeding with Angels and a great flood made no sense to them, right  .
I gotta go.
Have you given all you own to the poor?
I don’t have the ability to, considering (based on my parents rules) I really don’t own anything. If I did it probably wouldn’t make a difference to be honest.
If you don’t, you aren’t going to heaven...But since there is no heaven you’re right. It wouldn’t make a difference.
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." Stephen F. Roberts | | | 02 Jul 2009 02:40 pm |
UBER 1337 Poster Rep: 37 Joined: 06 May 2008 Posts: 2,585 OFFLINE | A theist wrote:
Khorib wrote:
A theist wrote:
Khorib wrote:
A theist wrote:
Khorib wrote:
A theist wrote:
riptorn311 wrote:
A theist wrote:
Actually based on what Christianity teaches selfishness can be (and technically is) the original sin. Ergo you have a lot of verses that teach giving to the poor etc.
Selfishness, the original sin...Masterminded by the king of selfishness...God...
The Biblical God is the only being with the right to be selfish (considering he made it all and its all his) but he really isn’t as selfish as he could be, if God truly was the King of selfishness he wouldn’t be merciful.
@Khorib
Salvation isn’t attained by works. The only thing people need to do to be saved is give their life to Christ, and except him as their lord and savior (that can be interpreted as a selfish act). But doing things like loving your enemy or neighbor and giving to the poor are things Christians are obligated to do once they accept Christ.
I’m aware of how salvation is attained through a Christian stand point, but Christianity isn’t universal, and especially when it comes to sin. Also, I wasn’t using “Salvation” singularly in the terms and definition that Christians use it.
Salation means to be saved, it doesn’t make much sense to define it in another way when discussing Christianity.
I’m using it in a philosophical sense of repentance or trying to balance karma. This idea is not solely a product of Christianity.
Also, you are focusing far too much on my use of the word “salvation” in context with my overall point.
Lastly:
“They were without sin before they ate the fruit after they ate it sin infected (as so to speak) mankind. Eve blamed the serpent and Adam blamed, not only Eve for giving it to him but God for giving him Eve. Now they probably believed it would kill them on the spot but thats not what he meant."
This is the usual Christian response to what I had posted about the Tree of life not killing Adam and Eve. It still does not account for God himself being the one to curse the world with death and the tree doing but grant wisdom and life. The only way God doesn’t come out on the other end as a liar is if when he said:
“You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.“,
that he actually meant, “If you eat or touch it, I WILL KILL YOU.“
The tree itself didn’t grant life (nor did it grant wisdom) it only granted knowledge (hence the name “tree of knowledge” . The tree of life is something different, but I digress.
Romans 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Adam’s actions brought forth sin and from sin came death.
[i]“So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband, and he ate.“[i/]
Knowledge of good an evil can easily be called “wisdom”, and I would not dispute this.
Also, I apologize for accidentally referring to the tree as also the tree of life... however, the nitpicking points you are making are not actually addressing the points I have made, nor is it hurting them.
Also, I am, once again, fully aware that Noah came after the fall of Adam and Eve. I was using that quote to point out that God fully regretted creating man and, so it seems, all life, and was set in his mind to wipe it out. This was to point out the maliciousness of God, and his full intent to end the species, yet it seems he reconsiders when he considers Noah.
I am addressing your points (and nitpicking at the same time ).
People weren’t meant to die but death came when sin came to be.
Romans 5 (New Living Translation)
12 When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned. 13 Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. But it was not counted as sin because there was not yet any law to break. 14 Still, everyone died—from the time of Adam to the time of Moses—even those who did not disobey an explicit commandment of God, as Adam did. Now Adam is a symbol, a representation of Christ, who was yet to come. 15 But there is a great difference between Adam’s sin and God’s gracious gift. For the sin of this one man, Adam, brought death to many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of forgiveness to many through this other man, Jesus Christ. 16 And the result of God’s gracious gift is very different from the result of that one man’s sin. For Adam’s sin led to condemnation, but God’s free gift leads to our being made right with God, even though we are guilty of many sins. 17 For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ.
18 Yes, Adam’s one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ’s one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone. 19 Because one person disobeyed God, many became sinners. But because one other person obeyed God, many will be made righteous.
Now the fact that God wanted to get rid of mankind was because of the sin that entered in thanks to Adam. When he found Noah he really had sympathy on mankind (Noah wasn’t perfect, as seen later on with his public drunkedness and nakedness).
-Its important to note the rather subjective definition of Perfection or Rightiousness in the OT.-
God had to eliminate them because sin separates people from God, these people were incredibly wicked (some interpret that they were breeding with angels *rebelling angels, if they were to do such a thing*). I suppose these people were probably too far stuck in their ways to be willing to listen to reason. Interestingly enough in the book of Jonah we see a similar situation in Ninevah, an evil city that God was going to destroy if they didn’t change their ways, (similar to sodom and Gomorrah and the pre-flood world), however after Jonah spoke to them they changed their ways and was spared. God put off destroying Sodom and Gommorah if Lot (or was it Abraham) could find 10 rightious people (the number was actually 50 at first). But after a while, God being just, destroyed the city like he said he would, doing multiple things to make things easy for lot and his family to escape (see earlier post)
Genesis 18 (NLT)
26 And the Lord replied, “If I find fifty righteous people in Sodom, I will spare the entire city for their sake.”
27 Then Abraham spoke again. “Since I have begun, let me speak further to my Lord, even though I am but dust and ashes. 28 Suppose there are only forty-five righteous people rather than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five?”
And the Lord said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five righteous people there.”
29 Then Abraham pressed his request further. “Suppose there are only forty?”
And the Lord replied, “I will not destroy it for the sake of the forty.”
30 “Please don’t be angry, my Lord,” Abraham pleaded. “Let me speak—suppose only thirty righteous people are found?”
And the Lord replied, “I will not destroy it if I find thirty.”
31 Then Abraham said, “Since I have dared to speak to the Lord, let me continue—suppose there are only twenty?”
And the Lord replied, “Then I will not destroy it for the sake of the twenty.”
32 Finally, Abraham said, “Lord, please don’t be angry with me if I speak one more time. Suppose only ten are found there?”
And the Lord replied, “Then I will not destroy it for the sake of the ten.”
33 When the Lord had finished his conversation with Abraham, he went on his way, and Abraham returned to his tent
Not even ten rightious people. God went from 50 to 10, thats mercy.
Why would sin enter the entire world just because he ate some fruit that grant HIM solely the knowledge of good and evil?
God is still the one who is decidedly killing them, not “sin”. “Sin” in and of itself had absolutely no part in the death of Adam and Eve, it was simply the WILL of God. God is the one who clearly curses them with death, pain and suffering...
I also as a side note, find this line rather peculiar in Genesis:
21 And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins, and clothed them. 22 Then the LORD God said, “ Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil”
Sounds to me like God is a part of a pantheon of gods. Sounds like there is more than one, otherwise why would he say “us”? And who was a speaking to? It’s no wonder that even the Vatican has dismissed genesis as pagan myth.
 Last edited 02 Jul 2009 02:42 pm by Khorib | | | 02 Jul 2009 03:20 pm |
A theist Guest | Khorib wrote:
A theist wrote:
Khorib wrote:
A theist wrote:
Khorib wrote:
A theist wrote:
Khorib wrote:
A theist wrote:
riptorn311 wrote:
A theist wrote:
Actually based on what Christianity teaches selfishness can be (and technically is) the original sin. Ergo you have a lot of verses that teach giving to the poor etc.
Selfishness, the original sin...Masterminded by the king of selfishness...God...
The Biblical God is the only being with the right to be selfish (considering he made it all and its all his) but he really isn’t as selfish as he could be, if God truly was the King of selfishness he wouldn’t be merciful.
@Khorib
Salvation isn’t attained by works. The only thing people need to do to be saved is give their life to Christ, and except him as their lord and savior (that can be interpreted as a selfish act). But doing things like loving your enemy or neighbor and giving to the poor are things Christians are obligated to do once they accept Christ.
I’m aware of how salvation is attained through a Christian stand point, but Christianity isn’t universal, and especially when it comes to sin. Also, I wasn’t using “Salvation” singularly in the terms and definition that Christians use it.
Salation means to be saved, it doesn’t make much sense to define it in another way when discussing Christianity.
I’m using it in a philosophical sense of repentance or trying to balance karma. This idea is not solely a product of Christianity.
Also, you are focusing far too much on my use of the word “salvation” in context with my overall point.
Lastly:
“They were without sin before they ate the fruit after they ate it sin infected (as so to speak) mankind. Eve blamed the serpent and Adam blamed, not only Eve for giving it to him but God for giving him Eve. Now they probably believed it would kill them on the spot but thats not what he meant."
This is the usual Christian response to what I had posted about the Tree of life not killing Adam and Eve. It still does not account for God himself being the one to curse the world with death and the tree doing but grant wisdom and life. The only way God doesn’t come out on the other end as a liar is if when he said:
“You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.“,
that he actually meant, “If you eat or touch it, I WILL KILL YOU.“
The tree itself didn’t grant life (nor did it grant wisdom) it only granted knowledge (hence the name “tree of knowledge” . The tree of life is something different, but I digress.
Romans 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Adam’s actions brought forth sin and from sin came death.
[i]“So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband, and he ate.“[i/]
Knowledge of good an evil can easily be called “wisdom”, and I would not dispute this.
Also, I apologize for accidentally referring to the tree as also the tree of life... however, the nitpicking points you are making are not actually addressing the points I have made, nor is it hurting them.
Also, I am, once again, fully aware that Noah came after the fall of Adam and Eve. I was using that quote to point out that God fully regretted creating man and, so it seems, all life, and was set in his mind to wipe it out. This was to point out the maliciousness of God, and his full intent to end the species, yet it seems he reconsiders when he considers Noah.
I am addressing your points (and nitpicking at the same time ).
People weren’t meant to die but death came when sin came to be.
Romans 5 (New Living Translation)
12 When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned. 13 Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. But it was not counted as sin because there was not yet any law to break. 14 Still, everyone died—from the time of Adam to the time of Moses—even those who did not disobey an explicit commandment of God, as Adam did. Now Adam is a symbol, a representation of Christ, who was yet to come. 15 But there is a great difference between Adam’s sin and God’s gracious gift. For the sin of this one man, Adam, brought death to many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of forgiveness to many through this other man, Jesus Christ. 16 And the result of God’s gracious gift is very different from the result of that one man’s sin. For Adam’s sin led to condemnation, but God’s free gift leads to our being made right with God, even though we are guilty of many sins. 17 For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ.
18 Yes, Adam’s one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ’s one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone. 19 Because one person disobeyed God, many became sinners. But because one other person obeyed God, many will be made righteous.
Now the fact that God wanted to get rid of mankind was because of the sin that entered in thanks to Adam. When he found Noah he really had sympathy on mankind (Noah wasn’t perfect, as seen later on with his public drunkedness and nakedness).
-Its important to note the rather subjective definition of Perfection or Rightiousness in the OT.-
God had to eliminate them because sin separates people from God, these people were incredibly wicked (some interpret that they were breeding with angels *rebelling angels, if they were to do such a thing*). I suppose these people were probably too far stuck in their ways to be willing to listen to reason. Interestingly enough in the book of Jonah we see a similar situation in Ninevah, an evil city that God was going to destroy if they didn’t change their ways, (similar to sodom and Gomorrah and the pre-flood world), however after Jonah spoke to them they changed their ways and was spared. God put off destroying Sodom and Gommorah if Lot (or was it Abraham) could find 10 rightious people (the number was actually 50 at first). But after a while, God being just, destroyed the city like he said he would, doing multiple things to make things easy for lot and his family to escape (see earlier post)
Genesis 18 (NLT)
26 And the Lord replied, “If I find fifty righteous people in Sodom, I will spare the entire city for their sake.”
27 Then Abraham spoke again. “Since I have begun, let me speak further to my Lord, even though I am but dust and ashes. 28 Suppose there are only forty-five righteous people rather than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five?”
And the Lord said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five righteous people there.”
29 Then Abraham pressed his request further. “Suppose there are only forty?”
And the Lord replied, “I will not destroy it for the sake of the forty.”
30 “Please don’t be angry, my Lord,” Abraham pleaded. “Let me speak—suppose only thirty righteous people are found?”
And the Lord replied, “I will not destroy it if I find thirty.”
31 Then Abraham said, “Since I have dared to speak to the Lord, let me continue—suppose there are only twenty?”
And the Lord replied, “Then I will not destroy it for the sake of the twenty.”
32 Finally, Abraham said, “Lord, please don’t be angry with me if I speak one more time. Suppose only ten are found there?”
And the Lord replied, “Then I will not destroy it for the sake of the ten.”
33 When the Lord had finished his conversation with Abraham, he went on his way, and Abraham returned to his tent
Not even ten rightious people. God went from 50 to 10, thats mercy.
Why would sin enter the entire world just because he ate some fruit that grant HIM solely the knowledge of good and evil?
God is still the one who is decidedly killing them, not “sin”. “Sin” in and of itself had absolutely no part in the death of Adam and Eve, it was simply the WILL of God. God is the one who clearly curses them with death, pain and suffering...
I also as a side note, find this line rather peculiar in Genesis:
21 And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins, and clothed them. 22 Then the LORD God said, “ Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil”
Sounds to me like God is a part of a pantheon of gods. Sounds like there is more than one, otherwise why would he say “us”? And who was a speaking to? It’s no wonder that even the Vatican has dismissed genesis as pagan myth.
Throughout Genesis are (and people in authority) are referred to as “lords” (not just God) he could have been talking to them, (at my church they say he was talking to Jesus and the Holy Ghost). Also, God didn’t kill Adam and Eve, they died. “The wages of sin is death”, they sinned by disobeying God and they died, (Adam did live over 900 years but he still died). The only way to avoid death in the Bible is to be taken up by God (Enoch and Elijah) otherwise its inevitable. He does curse them with pain and suffering, but death itself is on them. And by pain and suffering you mean farm work and child birth (not much of a picnic but a part of life). | | | 02 Jul 2009 05:31 pm |
Smoke THIS!!! Rep: 46 Joined: 11 Sep 2008 Posts: 7,894 OFFLINE | I just like to say that I like dairy products... and I’m *sniff* okay with that. ---
 | | | 02 Jul 2009 05:41 pm |
UBER 1337 Poster Rep: 37Joined: 06 May 2008 Posts: 2,585 OFFLINE | A theist wrote:
Khorib wrote:
A theist wrote:
Khorib wrote:
A theist wrote:
Khorib wrote:
A theist wrote:
Khorib wrote:
A theist wrote:
riptorn311 wrote:
A theist wrote:
Actually based on what Christianity teaches selfishness can be (and technically is) the original sin. Ergo you have a lot of verses that teach giving to the poor etc.
Selfishness, the original sin...Masterminded by the king of selfishness...God...
The Biblical God is the only being with the right to be selfish (considering he made it all and its all his) but he really isn’t as selfish as he could be, if God truly was the King of selfishness he wouldn’t be merciful.
@Khorib
Salvation isn’t attained by works. The only thing people need to do to be saved is give their life to Christ, and except him as their lord and savior (that can be interpreted as a selfish act). But doing things like loving your enemy or neighbor and giving to the poor are things Christians are obligated to do once they accept Christ.
I’m aware of how salvation is attained through a Christian stand point, but Christianity isn’t universal, and especially when it comes to sin. Also, I wasn’t using “Salvation” singularly in the terms and definition that Christians use it.
Salation means to be saved, it doesn’t make much sense to define it in another way when discussing Christianity.
I’m using it in a philosophical sense of repentance or trying to balance karma. This idea is not solely a product of Christianity.
Also, you are focusing far too much on my use of the word “salvation” in context with my overall point.
Lastly:
“They were without sin before they ate the fruit after they ate it sin infected (as so to speak) mankind. Eve blamed the serpent and Adam blamed, not only Eve for giving it to him but God for giving him Eve. Now they probably believed it would kill them on the spot but thats not what he meant."
This is the usual Christian response to what I had posted about the Tree of life not killing Adam and Eve. It still does not account for God himself being the one to curse the world with death and the tree doing but grant wisdom and life. The only way God doesn’t come out on the other end as a liar is if when he said:
“You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.“,
that he actually meant, “If you eat or touch it, I WILL KILL YOU.“
The tree itself didn’t grant life (nor did it grant wisdom) it only granted knowledge (hence the name “tree of knowledge” . The tree of life is something different, but I digress.
Romans 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Adam’s actions brought forth sin and from sin came death.
[i]“So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband, and he ate.“[i/]
Knowledge of good an evil can easily be called “wisdom”, and I would not dispute this.
Also, I apologize for accidentally referring to the tree as also the tree of life... however, the nitpicking points you are making are not actually addressing the points I have made, nor is it hurting them.
Also, I am, once again, fully aware that Noah came after the fall of Adam and Eve. I was using that quote to point out that God fully regretted creating man and, so it seems, all life, and was set in his mind to wipe it out. This was to point out the maliciousness of God, and his full intent to end the species, yet it seems he reconsiders when he considers Noah.
I am addressing your points (and nitpicking at the same time ).
People weren’t meant to die but death came when sin came to be.
Romans 5 (New Living Translation)
12 When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned. 13 Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. But it was not counted as sin because there was not yet any law to break. 14 Still, everyone died—from the time of Adam to the time of Moses—even those who did not disobey an explicit commandment of God, as Adam did. Now Adam is a symbol, a representation of Christ, who was yet to come. 15 But there is a great difference between Adam’s sin and God’s gracious gift. For the sin of this one man, Adam, brought death to many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of forgiveness to many through this other man, Jesus Christ. 16 And the result of God’s gracious gift is very different from the result of that one man’s sin. For Adam’s sin led to condemnation, but God’s free gift leads to our being made right with God, even though we are guilty of many sins. 17 For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ.
18 Yes, Adam’s one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ’s one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone. 19 Because one person disobeyed God, many became sinners. But because one other person obeyed God, many will be made righteous.
Now the fact that God wanted to get rid of mankind was because of the sin that entered in thanks to Adam. When he found Noah he really had sympathy on mankind (Noah wasn’t perfect, as seen later on with his public drunkedness and nakedness).
-Its important to note the rather subjective definition of Perfection or Rightiousness in the OT.-
God had to eliminate them because sin separates people from God, these people were incredibly wicked (some interpret that they were breeding with angels *rebelling angels, if they were to do such a thing*). I suppose these people were probably too far stuck in their ways to be willing to listen to reason. Interestingly enough in the book of Jonah we see a similar situation in Ninevah, an evil city that God was going to destroy if they didn’t change their ways, (similar to sodom and Gomorrah and the pre-flood world), however after Jonah spoke to them they changed their ways and was spared. God put off destroying Sodom and Gommorah if Lot (or was it Abraham) could find 10 rightious people (the number was actually 50 at first). But after a while, God being just, destroyed the city like he said he would, doing multiple things to make things easy for lot and his family to escape (see earlier post)
Genesis 18 (NLT)
26 And the Lord replied, “If I find fifty righteous people in Sodom, I will spare the entire city for their sake.”
27 Then Abraham spoke again. “Since I have begun, let me speak further to my Lord, even though I am but dust and ashes. 28 Suppose there are only forty-five righteous people rather than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five?”
And the Lord said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five righteous people there.”
29 Then Abraham pressed his request further. “Suppose there are only forty?”
And the Lord replied, “I will not destroy it for the sake of the forty.”
30 “Please don’t be angry, my Lord,” Abraham pleaded. “Let me speak—suppose only thirty righteous people are found?”
And the Lord replied, “I will not destroy it if I find thirty.”
31 Then Abraham said, “Since I have dared to speak to the Lord, let me continue—suppose there are only twenty?”
And the Lord replied, “Then I will not destroy it for the sake of the twenty.”
32 Finally, Abraham said, “Lord, please don’t be angry with me if I speak one more time. Suppose only ten are found there?”
And the Lord replied, “Then I will not destroy it for the sake of the ten.”
33 When the Lord had finished his conversation with Abraham, he went on his way, and Abraham returned to his tent
Not even ten rightious people. God went from 50 to 10, thats mercy.
Why would sin enter the entire world just because he ate some fruit that grant HIM solely the knowledge of good and evil?
God is still the one who is decidedly killing them, not “sin”. “Sin” in and of itself had absolutely no part in the death of Adam and Eve, it was simply the WILL of God. God is the one who clearly curses them with death, pain and suffering...
I also as a side note, find this line rather peculiar in Genesis:
21 And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins, and clothed them. 22 Then the LORD God said, “ Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil”
Sounds to me like God is a part of a pantheon of gods. Sounds like there is more than one, otherwise why would he say “us”? And who was a speaking to? It’s no wonder that even the Vatican has dismissed genesis as pagan myth.
Throughout Genesis are (and people in authority) are referred to as “lords” (not just God) he could have been talking to them, (at my church they say he was talking to Jesus and the Holy Ghost). Also, God didn’t kill Adam and Eve, they died. “The wages of sin is death”, they sinned by disobeying God and they died, (Adam did live over 900 years but he still died). The only way to avoid death in the Bible is to be taken up by God (Enoch and Elijah) otherwise its inevitable. He does curse them with pain and suffering, but death itself is on them. And by pain and suffering you mean farm work and child birth (not much of a picnic but a part of life).
Talking to Jesus and the Holy ghost, eh? That is a far fetched guess my friend.
And yes, God did kill them. He did so by making them mortal, thus, in the end, killing them.
Paain by suffering and farmwork and childbirth that didn’t exist until God made it so... It was not a part of life before God decided to add it as punishment. Everything that happened to Adam and Eve after eating the fruit was directly done by God, not as a direct result from eating the fruit. His actions were the result of eating the fruit.
| | | 02 Jul 2009 07:17 pm |
A theist Guest | Khorib wrote:
A theist wrote:
Khorib wrote:
A theist wrote:
Khorib wrote:
A theist wrote:
Khorib wrote:
A theist wrote:
Khorib wrote:
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riptorn311 wrote:
A theist wrote:
Actually based on what Christianity teaches selfishness can be (and technically is) the original sin. Ergo you have a lot of verses that teach giving to the poor etc.
Selfishness, the original sin...Masterminded by the king of selfishness...God...
The Biblical God is the only being with the right to be selfish (considering he made it all and its all his) but he really isn’t as selfish as he could be, if God truly was the King of selfishness he wouldn’t be merciful.
@Khorib
Salvation isn’t attained by works. The only thing people need to do to be saved is give their life to Christ, and except him as their lord and savior (that can be interpreted as a selfish act). But doing things like loving your enemy or neighbor and giving to the poor are things Christians are obligated to do once they accept Christ.
I’m aware of how salvation is attained through a Christian stand point, but Christianity isn’t universal, and especially when it comes to sin. Also, I wasn’t using “Salvation” singularly in the terms and definition that Christians use it.
Salation means to be saved, it doesn’t make much sense to define it in another way when discussing Christianity.
I’m using it in a philosophical sense of repentance or trying to balance karma. This idea is not solely a product of Christianity.
Also, you are focusing far too much on my use of the word “salvation” in context with my overall point.
Lastly:
“They were without sin before they ate the fruit after they ate it sin infected (as so to speak) mankind. Eve blamed the serpent and Adam blamed, not only Eve for giving it to him but God for giving him Eve. Now they probably believed it would kill them on the spot but thats not what he meant."
This is the usual Christian response to what I had posted about the Tree of life not killing Adam and Eve. It still does not account for God himself being the one to curse the world with death and the tree doing but grant wisdom and life. The only way God doesn’t come out on the other end as a liar is if when he said:
“You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.“,
that he actually meant, “If you eat or touch it, I WILL KILL YOU.“
The tree itself didn’t grant life (nor did it grant wisdom) it only granted knowledge (hence the name “tree of knowledge” . The tree of life is something different, but I digress.
Romans 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Adam’s actions brought forth sin and from sin came death.
[i]“So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband, and he ate.“[i/]
Knowledge of good an evil can easily be called “wisdom”, and I would not dispute this.
Also, I apologize for accidentally referring to the tree as also the tree of life... however, the nitpicking points you are making are not actually addressing the points I have made, nor is it hurting them.
Also, I am, once again, fully aware that Noah came after the fall of Adam and Eve. I was using that quote to point out that God fully regretted creating man and, so it seems, all life, and was set in his mind to wipe it out. This was to point out the maliciousness of God, and his full intent to end the species, yet it seems he reconsiders when he considers Noah.
I am addressing your points (and nitpicking at the same time ).
People weren’t meant to die but death came when sin came to be.
Romans 5 (New Living Translation)
12 When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned. 13 Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. But it was not counted as sin because there was not yet any law to break. 14 Still, everyone died—from the time of Adam to the time of Moses—even those who did not disobey an explicit commandment of God, as Adam did. Now Adam is a symbol, a representation of Christ, who was yet to come. 15 But there is a great difference between Adam’s sin and God’s gracious gift. For the sin of this one man, Adam, brought death to many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of forgiveness to many through this other man, Jesus Christ. 16 And the result of God’s gracious gift is very different from the result of that one man’s sin. For Adam’s sin led to condemnation, but God’s free gift leads to our being made right with God, even though we are guilty of many sins. 17 For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ.
18 Yes, Adam’s one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ’s one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone. 19 Because one person disobeyed God, many became sinners. But because one other person obeyed God, many will be made righteous.
Now the fact that God wanted to get rid of mankind was because of the sin that entered in thanks to Adam. When he found Noah he really had sympathy on mankind (Noah wasn’t perfect, as seen later on with his public drunkedness and nakedness).
-Its important to note the rather subjective definition of Perfection or Rightiousness in the OT.-
God had to eliminate them because sin separates people from God, these people were incredibly wicked (some interpret that they were breeding with angels *rebelling angels, if they were to do such a thing*). I suppose these people were probably too far stuck in their ways to be willing to listen to reason. Interestingly enough in the book of Jonah we see a similar situation in Ninevah, an evil city that God was going to destroy if they didn’t change their ways, (similar to sodom and Gomorrah and the pre-flood world), however after Jonah spoke to them they changed their ways and was spared. God put off destroying Sodom and Gommorah if Lot (or was it Abraham) could find 10 rightious people (the number was actually 50 at first). But after a while, God being just, destroyed the city like he said he would, doing multiple things to make things easy for lot and his family to escape (see earlier post)
Genesis 18 (NLT)
26 And the Lord replied, “If I find fifty righteous people in Sodom, I will spare the entire city for their sake.”
27 Then Abraham spoke again. “Since I have begun, let me speak further to my Lord, even though I am but dust and ashes. 28 Suppose there are only forty-five righteous people rather than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five?”
And the Lord said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five righteous people there.”
29 Then Abraham pressed his request further. “Suppose there are only forty?”
And the Lord replied, “I will not destroy it for the sake of the forty.”
30 “Please don’t be angry, my Lord,” Abraham pleaded. “Let me speak—suppose only thirty righteous people are found?”
And the Lord replied, “I will not destroy it if I find thirty.”
31 Then Abraham said, “Since I have dared to speak to the Lord, let me continue—suppose there are only twenty?”
And the Lord replied, “Then I will not destroy it for the sake of the twenty.”
32 Finally, Abraham said, “Lord, please don’t be angry with me if I speak one more time. Suppose only ten are found there?”
And the Lord replied, “Then I will not destroy it for the sake of the ten.”
33 When the Lord had finished his conversation with Abraham, he went on his way, and Abraham returned to his tent
Not even ten rightious people. God went from 50 to 10, thats mercy.
Why would sin enter the entire world just because he ate some fruit that grant HIM solely the knowledge of good and evil?
God is still the one who is decidedly killing them, not “sin”. “Sin” in and of itself had absolutely no part in the death of Adam and Eve, it was simply the WILL of God. God is the one who clearly curses them with death, pain and suffering...
I also as a side note, find this line rather peculiar in Genesis:
21 And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins, and clothed them. 22 Then the LORD God said, “ Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil”
Sounds to me like God is a part of a pantheon of gods. Sounds like there is more than one, otherwise why would he say “us”? And who was a speaking to? It’s no wonder that even the Vatican has dismissed genesis as pagan myth.
Throughout Genesis are (and people in authority) are referred to as “lords” (not just God) he could have been talking to them, (at my church they say he was talking to Jesus and the Holy Ghost). Also, God didn’t kill Adam and Eve, they died. “The wages of sin is death”, they sinned by disobeying God and they died, (Adam did live over 900 years but he still died). The only way to avoid death in the Bible is to be taken up by God (Enoch and Elijah) otherwise its inevitable. He does curse them with pain and suffering, but death itself is on them. And by pain and suffering you mean farm work and child birth (not much of a picnic but a part of life).
Talking to Jesus and the Holy ghost, eh? That is a far fetched guess my friend.
And yes, God did kill them. He did so by making them mortal, thus, in the end, killing them.
Paain by suffering and farmwork and childbirth that didn’t exist until God made it so... It was not a part of life before God decided to add it as punishment. Everything that happened to Adam and Eve after eating the fruit was directly done by God, not as a direct result from eating the fruit. His actions were the result of eating the fruit.
My first part got cut off, I said he also could have been talking to angels. Pain and Suffering came from God, death was the fault of Adam, he made himself mortal. Its also interesting that Adam received the blame (rather than Eve) he received the commandment directly from God to not eat it, disobeying him it wasn’t merely eating the fruit. Rageoverdose made a good point in an earlier thread when he stated that God isn’t Omnipotent, but not completely correct (I think he goes to far with that idea). God is Almighty and can do all things for those who call on him and try to follow his will (but thats just it), but he can’t work with those who don’t follow his will. Before they ate the fruit they were pure and without sin (although they had the capacity). Living in paradise with a certain pureness to them, after they ate the fruit like I said before, sin contaminated (as so to speak) mankind, thats why its said that after God destroys this world he will give us new perfect bodies because the ones we have are “damaged goods”. Now Adam and Eve were outside of God’s will (his hedge of protection if you will) which eventually led to their demise. | | | 03 Jul 2009 11:21 pm |
Wannabe Rep: 1Joined: 09 Jun 2009 Posts: 25 OFFLINE | Hi all
Sorry folks, I have been unable to get internet access for the past month, due to unforeseen circumstances.
Anyway, it is nice to be back, and hopefully I can move this debate forward.
SO in response to the posts about the questions I asked, It is nice to see that the religious minded have in general agreed that selfishness is the original sin, though I am disappointed slightly that most of the atheists have treated the question with a degree of mistrust, trying to bend the question in a way to suit their own answers. Please everyone - religious and atheist alike, only by asking and answering questions truthfully can this debate move forward - as an atheist, I recognize the traps led by unfair questioning by some religious questioners, but in an internet debate, I hope people have time and patience to recognize such traps and point out their invalidity - those such as Sam Harris has on occasion fallen into unfortunately. (a list of questions to ask these “christians” in such a case will be supplied later - to turn the tables).
Anyway, back to the original point of the topic
PART 1 - Belief as an evolutionary concept, and why we believe. | | | 03 Jul 2009 11:28 pm |
A theist Guest | 2 Corinthians 8 (NLT)
11 Now you should finish what you started. Let the eagerness you showed in the beginning be matched now by your giving. Give in proportion to what you have.
12 Whatever you give is acceptable if you give it eagerly. And give according to what you have, not what you don’t have.
13 Of course, I don’t mean your giving should make life easy for others and hard for yourselves. I only mean that there should be some equality.
14 Right now you have plenty and can help those who are in need. Later, they will have plenty and can share with you when you need it. In this way, things will be equal.
15 As the Scriptures say,
“Those who gathered a lot had nothing left over,
and those who gathered only a little had enough.”[d] | | | 04 Jul 2009 07:51 pm |
Nonsense won't be tolerated Rep: 72 Joined: 17 Jan 2007 Posts: 7,292 OFFLINE | silverspirit2001 wrote:
Hi all
Sorry folks, I have been unable to get internet access for the past month, due to unforeseen circumstances.
I thought you had died or something.
silverspirit2001 wrote:
Anyway, it is nice to be back, and hopefully I can move this debate forward.
SO in response to the posts about the questions I asked, It is nice to see that the religious minded have in general agreed that selfishness is the original sin, though I am disappointed slightly that most of the atheists have treated the question with a degree of mistrust, trying to bend the question in a way to suit their own answers. Please everyone - religious and atheist alike, only by asking and answering questions truthfully can this debate move forward - as an atheist, I recognize the traps led by unfair questioning by some religious questioners, but in an internet debate, I hope people have time and patience to recognize such traps and point out their invalidity - those such as Sam Harris has on occasion fallen into unfortunately. (a list of questions to ask these “christians” in such a case will be supplied later - to turn the tables).
You want to know why I mistrust your question. It is because you use the phase “original sin”. What is sin? Something bad? Something a made up god doesn’t want us to do? It’s a phase I would never use. As I would not use the word faith. Phases and words such as these have too many different unrelated definitions for proper communication. To agree on any one of these phases or words, I am unwilling agreeing on all the other unrelated definitions of that phase or word.
silverspirit2001 wrote:
Anyway, back to the original point of the topic
PART 1 - Belief as an evolutionary concept, and why we believe.
We believe things when we are children, because children need to trust what we say. Eg. Don’t go down to the river a crocodile will eat you. A skeptical child will most likely be eaten.
Cid wrote:
You flame religions and its followers without even considering their side of the story. You’re not much different from Hitler with his extermination of the jews
 | | | 06 Jul 2009 10:29 am |
A theist Guest | @ Gplex
You want to know why I mistrust your question. It is because you use the phase “original sin”. What is sin? Something bad? Something a made up god doesn’t want us to do? It’s a phase I would never use. As I would not use the word faith. Phases and words such as these have too many different unrelated definitions for proper communication. To agree on any one of these phases or words, I am unwilling agreeing on all the other unrelated definitions of that phase or word.
Well considering he’s discussing religion (Christianity in particular) the Definition of sin is an action that God condemns. According to Christian though sin actually separates us from God due to his nature.
A secular definition of sin I guess would roughly mean, an action or thought thats “bad”. But modern morality is fairly subjective, so from a secular standpoint I agree with you. | | |
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