Shaun of the Living wrote:
Pretending your problems don’t exist is willfully ignorant, yes. Unless you’re talking about adjusting your mindset so it doesn’t matter to you anymore or avoiding the problem, which is a different thing to what I was speaking about.
I would say pretending your problems don’t exist and changing your mindset so they don’t matter to be roughly equivalent. It’s not like in either case the problems are gone, but one just accepts them better, I guess. I don’t necessarily call that immature, I just think it’s a rather doomed way of life.
Shaun of the Living wrote:
I disagree. I don’t believe in the idea of people being 'free thinkers' or 'sheep', I don’t use those terms. People have no free will, ultimately our feelings and our thoughts come from external forces over which we have no control. So we are all 'sheep' to our genes and the environment, in that sense.
But what you are saying is just a technicality. While it is true that individuals cannot control their own socialization, other people can, and you can socialize a human to be “free-willed." I do not agree that free will is an intrinsic human trait, but it can be given to us.
Shaun of the Living wrote:
To me, blaming someone for conforming to the norm or following someone else is a bit ad hominem. I don’t care if you’re part of the majority or a minority, what matters is who is right and who is wrong, and whether you’re being humane. Conformity has nothing to do with it.
Just conforming can cause many problems. Just conforming is what leads to people doing stupid shit like taking rights away or killing others or making/accepting stupid decisions. I think that humans should be taught to make thoughtful decisions, not to just do something because that’s what people are doing. You say I’m being ad hominem, I say you are supporting jumping the bandwagon. Both are logical fallacies. And really, I don’t think I’m being ad hominem since I’m not attacking the arguer, but making the argument on someone.
Shaun of the Living wrote:
Obesity is generally risky for your health, just like heroin addiction or playing video games for 40 hours straight. However, I don’t bother people who want to do those things because it’s their body that they’re dealing with and they have the right to do whatever they want with it so long as they’re not hurting anybody else.
The difference with religion is that it attacks the rights of others, such as women, atheists, pagans, homosexuals, blasphemers etc, which is why it’s a problem and, in my opinion, does not deserve to be respected.
Don’t get me wrong, I do not want to ban religion or forcefully make anyone give it up, because that would make me just as bad as religion or fascism itself. But when people use religion as an excuse to take away the rights of others that is unnacceptable. Most Christians do not truly follow the Bible and don’t stone people to death, so I’m not saying they’re much of a major threat, but rotten trees bear rotten fruit, which is why 'moderate Christians' often still have evil influence from the Bible in some of their actions, such as voting against gay rights, forcing Creationism into classrooms, etc. That’s where I have a problem. So, I aim not to stop Christianity by brute force or legal tyranny, but by educating people about it’s true nature.
I agree, that if someone wants to be obese, there isn’t anything I can rightfully do to stop them. It is their body and there is no general harm in a person being obese; in fact, I can’t think of a good reason except falling on someone.
But not all religion is like that. Most religion has no affect on the civilized world, and Buddhism is a very peaceful, and personal, religion. Still, I agree, there is a danger with modern Abrahamic religions and their tolerance for what has been looked down upon and condemned in their religion. I mean, can you really blame a person for hating homosexuality when, since birth, that’s what they were taught? It’s another example of your argument against free will, they didn’t choose it and they couldn’t stop it. However, I do believe they can change it, although admittedly, it’s harder to remove socialization than it is to cause it, and some cases probably dangerous. I like your way better actually.
Totally wrong on the obiese issue...It affects society as a whole, just as cigarettes do. The fallacy statement that it hurts noone but the individual is misleading. Where it hurts us in the healthcare field...When I have to pay taxes so some douchebag can go eat 20 double cheeseburgers then see a doctor about gastric bypass surgery(which IS covered by medicare and medicade), it does become a society problem. Thing is, I have no right to say what people can or can’t eat...But I should have the right to say no when these people want us to pony up and pay for their obiesity. I’m so sick of hearing fat people whine and bitch because they are fat and hate it when people point out common knowledge because it offends them...Take the damn milkshake straw outta your mouth and go exercise dammit!!!!
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“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." Stephen F. Roberts
Shaun of the Living wrote:
Problems are a creation of the mind. When your priorities change, so do your problems. There is a difference between becoming apathetic to something that previously bothered you and doing nothing about something you are secretly shitting yourself over. To me, that signifies an inability to plan ahead and deal wit the inevitable, but whatever.
More accurately, problems are a creation of society. It all depends on where you rank in society that determines your problems along with what you said as how someone perceives their problems.
Shaun of the Living wrote:
I wasn’t just talking about our social environment, I was saying free will doesn’t exist because everything we do is a response to something. These responses are dictated by what we feel will give us the most pleasure and let us avoid the most pain, and what we feel will give us the most pleasure and let us avoid the most pain is dictated by our instinct, emotions and cognitive reasoning, which we do not have control over. Instinct is innate, emotion is innate but influenced by experiences and circumstances and our cognitive reasoning develops and changes as external forces teach us and make us think in different ways.
Emotion is not innate. Emotion is learned. There have been cases of human children who were sheltered and had NO social interaction. They were nothing but vegetables, no emotional responses to anything. Their intelligence was also very low. Feral children are a good example of how humans aren’t innately the way they are in our civilized societies, because we learn our personality based upon our environment; this includes emotions.
Cognition, or what I like to call intelligence, is also not innate, as it is based upon a standard set by society, and can also change based upon the environment. Your brain changes constantly, and you (or your parents when you are young) can influence it’s growth because of environment. Of course there are limitations, and probably genetic diseases that can inhibit or nullify this, but I’m not talking about special cases.
Shaun of the Living wrote:
It can also do good things like stopping people from commiting crime that hurts others, like murder and rape.
You are right, but so can a logical mind. But I also think you are right when you say conformity could be a logically made choice.
Shaun of the Living wrote:
Implying people are wrong in their argument just because they follow the majority of others in their opinion is ad hominem. It has nothing to do with whether they’re right or wrong. Pretty much everyone in western countries accepts the theory of gravity, are you and I sheep because we follow almost everyone else in that respect?
I did not mean to imply that people are wrong because they conform, but to imply that I felt conforming could be wrong. Unfortunately, that technically makes me a hypocrite since all humans conform to something, but I’m not talking about large societies as much as smaller social groups, like when a teenager just wants to fit in at school or someone conforms to religion just to evade the potential of hostility in places where non-religious are looked down upon, like down South.
Shaun of the Living wrote:
I don’t support following the majority in all situations, nor do I support following a minority in all situations. I’m saying sometimes it can be a good thing for society, sometimes it isn’t, but overall whether a certain example of conformity is good or not depends on whether the argument being followed is right or wrong and that the demographic of people who accept it does not automatically validate or invalidate it.
We are going down to the point of “nothing is intrinsically wrong or right," which is a point where we can’t argue anything. At some point we have to accept our society as right, and there are a few objective things we can look at. I guess I just contradicted myself, but I was a bit wrong, although I still feel conformity is not good on smaller scales, because it can compromise what a person likes or dislikes in life.
Shaun of the Living wrote:
John Wayne Gacy wasn’t conforming to social norms when he raped, tortured and murdered those 33 young boys, and that was clearly an evil act. On the other hand; so were the actions of the Nazi soldiers who slaughtered millions of innocent people and claimed to be “Just following orders”. What I’m trying to say is conformity can be a good as well as bad thing, and that you need to stop dealing in absolutes in this respect.
They probably were just following orders. Studies such as Milgram’s experiment were done when the prosecuted Nazi soldiers weren’t taken seriously for their claims of just following orders. His experiments showed that, when under pressure, people will easily follow orders to harm another human being. But, you are still right, conformity can be good and it can be bad.
Shaun of the Living wrote:
I know this is a bit off topic, but that’s still a pretty stupid reason. How often do you hear about a fat guy who tripped over on somebody and accidentally suffocated them to death?
Well, I was joking. =P
Shaun of the Living wrote:
Buddhism promotes a kind of super-pacifism that isn’t always good for society. Sometimes people have to take an aggressive stand against evil rather than just sitting on their ass and expecting everyone to be nice.
Wasn’t Martin Luther King Jr.'s death a step forward in race relations in the United States? It sure wasn’t the only one, but he strongly believed in Buddhists' belief of non-violence. Pacifism isn’t just “sitting on your ass." That’s a horrible representation of the idea of pacifism and non-violent rebellion. Humans can shake up society and mess up the order by using pacifism. And no one can technically do anything about it since it’s freedom of speech/expression.
silverspirit2001 wrote:
Really gplex - show me one post that hints that I think atheism is illogical.
Don’t tell me what to do. I already post you last post as a example wtf.
silverspirit2001 wrote:
Now, to the statement
The fact you do not want to accept that I am is a symptom of everything wrong with your position gplex. This I contend is a symptom of you being an arguement poor atheist - does that clear it up for you. You offer barbed comments, not reasoned debate, you endlessly bash the bible, hinting that every believer is a idiot and say their is no evidence for god. Fine, I am happy if you feel that is the best way to advocate your atheism. And frankly, it is effective as a boat made of soap.
Yea, somehow I knew you wouldn’t quote me. Yes anyone who reads the bible and believes it to be true, is an idiot. Especially in this today where we can access information so easily.
If you think the religious would stop blowing people up, taking people’s rights away, would you think I would give a shit, if they believe in this? Of course not!
silverspirit2001 wrote:
But here is the difference between me and you gplex. Yes the bible is illogical, which I sometimes quote for support, yes their is no physical evidence for god. But I have not seen you make one argument from any other source or promote a positive view of atheism .
No, no. We are very different. You seem less concerned about the truth, but more concerned with biblical concepts such as sin.
Wow you have been here what.. a month, and you want to see all my arguments, sorry I don’t do the legwork for others, go read the other threads.
Oh, you want something positive of atheism, I don’t do promotions thanks.
silverspirit2001 wrote:
Now my arguments for people to become atheist, is based of defining and explaining concepts of the religious as part of the evolution of the mind, help people understand why they have religious impulses, why morality is a positive concept in evolution, its importance of its development for human society and easily understood mechanism for its development.
We can only speculate how the human mind came to state that it is in, there is no direct evidence to prove any of this.
silverspirit2001 wrote:
I try to lead people to understand that they don’t have a need for a god to explain anything, and the theory of mind explains the development of “faith”.
Another reason why I don’t believe you are an atheist. You would understand that my reason can and probably are different than yours. Every atheist has their own reasons, independent of their atheism.
As for god, I don’t care if they believe in a god; I start to look up when the claim that there god wants them to do something.
silverspirit2001 wrote:
I mean, do you think all theists believe in god, so they avoid being burned in hell? Do you think all theists approve of the behaviour of god in the old testament? All christians believe gays should be stoned?
Of course not, but these are the arguments I get throw back at me when I start asking questions.
silverspirit2001 wrote:
The truth is, they find some support in the god concept (which I will demonstrate why in the other thread), which allows them to bastardize their faith, until it means what they feel it should mean.
Yea, as if the scriptures they got their faith from wasn’t ‘bastardize’ already.
silverspirit2001 wrote:
And that’s one of religions strengths, to every believer, what they believe FEELS true. Saying you are a nutjob, or your book is pure shite, has little effect on their feelings except to piss them off.
What makes you think that this is not my goal?
silverspirit2001 wrote:
I am with Hitchens on this point, religions are dangerous, and in my own small way, try to contribute to killing the beast.
The ‘beast’ will be killed through educating the masses.
silverspirit2001 wrote:
But this is crucial, you just declaim religion, I show that what they feel is a evolutionary impulse that inspired their religious feelings. The impulse is an important part of the human psyche, but in those of faith has led to an incorrect conclusion of the ordering of the universe.
By showing what their faith is and why it feels correct even in this modern day I hope will be a powerful tool.
Good luck to you on that.
silverspirit2001 wrote:
And that is the point, I look for new tools, rather than use old tools which have not been proved effective at my goal in spreading atheism and rational thought.
Atheism, may not be rational one day. If evidence came about of a god, I would believe. Spreading rational thought, is what you should be trying to do. Atheism will follow, as long as there is no evidence for a god.
silverspirit2001 wrote:
And you gplex think only your way is the correct way, and your logical models are correct. The fact that many sciences throws new light on the situation such as evolutionary psychology, it throws new facts which can only improve our arguments, you are stuck like the Rush Limbaugh of the atheist world.
When they find evidence for these things I will be on board, I’m not a big fan of guess.
silverspirit2001 wrote:
Nice to see that you are back-pedalling a bit, now I could be the most ignorant atheist you have met, instead of a theist.
Of theist.
silverspirit2001 wrote:
Or just maybe you are absolutely wrong, I am an atheist trying to do something positive in a new way, and you just can not see it, because you have not bothered to look for the new questions atheists should be asking, and new ways to explain our position to the theists.
I could be wrong. That’s why I said I believe you are a theist. I not a big fan of explain simple concepts.
silverspirit2001 wrote:
After all, why come to a board about religion, unless you want to proclaim your atheism and evidence, to get rid of this corruption we call religion?
I get annoyed when I see people spreading disinformation.
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Cid wrote:
You flame religions and its followers without even considering their side of the story. You’re not much different from Hitler with his extermination of the jews
Yeah thanks for calling anyone who believes the bible and idiot that sounds so respectful in ur debating lol jk. But seriously thats why people call u stuff lol cause u flame religions sometimes
__________________
A genius isnt someone with a massive amount of intellegence, a genius is someone who shoots at something no one else can see and hits it.
Astro wrote:
Yeah thanks for calling anyone who believes the bible and idiot that sounds so respectful in ur debating lol jk. But seriously thats why people call u stuff lol cause u flame religions sometimes
Don’t do that. Don’t put words in my mouth.
A lot of people believe the bible to be true. A lot of these people have not read the bible. They just take their preacher/parents/teacher/friends etc word that it is true.
I said anyone who reads the bible, and thinks that it is true is an idiot. Do you wish me to justify this?
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Cid wrote:
You flame religions and its followers without even considering their side of the story. You’re not much different from Hitler with his extermination of the jews
Dont aeithiest not believe in anything? if they do wats the point of trying to make us not believe it really doesnt matter unless ur trying to confort us to like a right religion. studies even show that Christians and beleivers live longer than aeithiests because christians r more happy and look forward to heven and aeithiest dont beleive i heven so they r more sad
AgentTurtle wrote:
Dont aeithiest not believe in anything? if they do wats the point of trying to make us not believe it really doesnt matter unless ur trying to confort us to like a right religion. studies even show that Christians and beleivers live longer than aeithiests because christians r more happy and look forward to heven and aeithiest dont beleive i heven so they r more sad
well icant find the other news thing but i found this person who also knows about it on another forum read the top post http://www.beliefnet.com/boards_mini/index.asp?pageID=1&boardID=75967
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Thanks to KingBoo my bro for the signature.
Last edited 08 Jul 2009 08:41 pm by Agent Turtle 00T
I don’t see the study. But people seem to be talking about it. It also says it is not exclusive to Christians. Also, it says nothing about atheists being more sad in there.
i know it doesnt talk about people beiung more sad, it would just be the like only way it would make sense. if i find the study ill PM. i understand wy u dont beleive me right now cause i cant find the facts but ill try and if not, then maybe it is fake so ill keep looking
I would think at best God is a stress reliever, and it helps them live longer, but I question this study...Too many variables. Genetics,eating habits,etc are not even included I don’t think so...
And the fact that there are more religious people than non religious, is also an issue. For instance, 20 atheist premature deaths make more impact than 20 religious people death because there is a significantly more amount of religious people
Astro wrote:
Yeah thanks for calling anyone who believes the bible and idiot that sounds so respectful in ur debating lol jk. But seriously thats why people call u stuff lol cause u flame religions sometimes
Don’t do that. Don’t put words in my mouth.
A lot of people believe the bible to be true. A lot of these people have not read the bible. They just take their preacher/parents/teacher/friends etc word that it is true.
I said anyone who reads the bible, and thinks that it is true is an idiot. Do you wish me to justify this?
Lol that still calls alot of people idiots its cool to disagree no need to insult people just sayin
__________________
A genius isnt someone with a massive amount of intellegence, a genius is someone who shoots at something no one else can see and hits it.
Astro wrote:
Yeah thanks for calling anyone who believes the bible and idiot that sounds so respectful in ur debating lol jk. But seriously thats why people call u stuff lol cause u flame religions sometimes
Don’t do that. Don’t put words in my mouth.
A lot of people believe the bible to be true. A lot of these people have not read the bible. They just take their preacher/parents/teacher/friends etc word that it is true.
I said anyone who reads the bible, and thinks that it is true is an idiot. Do you wish me to justify this?
Lol that still calls alot of people idiots its cool to disagree no need to insult people just sayin
If you just go by what people tell you, and believe it with 100% absolute certainty without the thought you could be wrong, you’re an idiot. I am talking in general here.
