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Braise wrote:
Yes. There’s a reason something may have a considerable reputation. Kiba Inuzuka’s Double Piercing Fang has pierced stone through. An advanced form of this move, Double Wolf Fang, dented a Rashomon gate summoned by Sakon and Ukon. Mountains are made of stone. Therefore, mountain-sized, (Triple) Senju Rashomon > Mountain.

Ok, so they are quite a bit more durable than normal stone of similar size. This still doesn’t prove they are as durable as a whole mountain.

Braise wrote: There’s a significant difference in how it operates inside the individual.

Yes, they are slightly different. But they are similar in that both are systems of energy that flow through one’s body and, when blocked, immobilize a person and disable their magic. Do you disagree with any of that?

Braise wrote: “Tsunade =/= Aang. The fact is Aang can permanently stop energy flowing through the body (it’s actually called “energybending”wink. Chakra is energy flowing through the body. Aang should be able to stop it. "
In naruto, the only way you can inhibit use of chakra is if you rewire it or remove it. To “stop” Chakra flow permanently would be equivalent to removing it. The safest thing you could say is that Aang rewired Ozai’s chakra system, which would not work in Naruto; Kabuto found a work around after his chakra circuit was rewired.

I said stop, not remove.

Key phrase: “In Naruto”. Just because no one in the Narutoverse can permanently affect the chakra system doesn’t mean Aang can’t. In fact, chakra systems have been permanently changed before, as with Orochimaru’s arms.

Braise wrote: Nowhere does it say that Aang permanently stopped that energy. The (http://www.nick.com/shows/avatar/index.jhtml) Nickelodeon site goes into detail only about how this energybending is performed (avatar must be of pure energy), and that Ozai lost his firebending abilities. It is never stated that his energy was stopped or removed in any way. The turtle’s quote only fortifies my idea. If Aang is energybending the chakra inside someone, then in the Narutoverse, this chakra would soon return to normal as seen in Kabuto (Tsunade) and Naruto (Neji).

Ok, this is so illogical it doesn’t really even deserve a response. But I’ll spell it out for you anyway.

“Bending another’s energy”=energybending=removing one’s bending=permanent.

Therefore, “Bending another’s energy” is permanent.

Braise wrote: Then this argument is moot, as its conjecture at best; Naruto would never fight Aang. And my previous statement was hardly a conjecture. I wrote that despite Naruto’s seemingly lower arsenal, he provides more punch.

You have a point there. I was just commenting on when you said 8-tails and 9-tails, which we have seen none of (from Naruto)

EDIT: Also, just when has Naruto used a shadow clone while using kyuubi power?

Naruto does shadow clone, lures Aang in. 4-tails naruto rises from the ground right behind Aang, and with a compressed chakra ball blows him to smithereens. Done.

However, I like Desert Spada’s breakdown of the situation. I could see it going either way.

There’s also that barrier that Aang created while in the avatar state. That could protect him from any of his attacks, while in 4 tails, that could pose as a problem, as you have said.

Well, Naruto’s greatest strength is the fact that he has a lot of chakra. His techniques usually come to his Shadow Clones and the rasengan. So from what I’ve seen of Naruto in action, I’m thinking that Aang would win this one. Aang has mastery of Water, Earth, Air and Firebending which pretty much gives him an unlimited supply of materials to work with.

Now, adding the Kyuubi to the mix may complicate things. Just being juiced up by the Kyuubi’s chakra won’t be enough, but if he goes into 4 Tails Naruto then that’s where the problem comes up. In order to counter this, Aang would need to go into his Avatar state, which beat the snot out of a super powered Firelord Ozai. Aang’s defense goes up tremendously as well as his attack power. I’m not sure of speed though, but he is pretty fast.

4 Tails Naruto is strong, but he is pretty much going to stay in one area. This makes an easy target since Aang wouldn’t even need to get close to him at all. He could be hundreds of feet up in the air, away from 4 Tails Naruto. The compressed Chakra ball that he shot is very powerful indeed, but Aang would have plenty of space to get out of the way and has attacks that could cause just as much damage.

So I think that I’m going with Aang on this one.

Bender Alchemist wrote:

Oh, so they haven’t been used against anything but the chakra ball? So here’s how your logic goes: An untested defense with a considerable reputation couldn’t stop the chakra ball. Thus, the chakra ball is a mountain buster.

-_-

Yes. There’s a reason something may have a considerable reputation. Kiba Inuzuka’s Double Piercing Fang has pierced stone through. An advanced form of this move, Double Wolf Fang, dented a Rashomon gate summoned by Sakon and Ukon. Mountains are made of stone. Therefore, mountain-sized, (Triple) Senju Rashomon > Mountain.

Bender Alchemist wrote: They’re not identical, but they are similar enough.

There’s a significant difference in how it operates inside the individual.

Bender Alchemist wrote: Who said anything about removing?

“Tsunade =/= Aang. The fact is Aang can permanently stop energy flowing through the body (it’s actually called “energybending”wink. Chakra is energy flowing through the body. Aang should be able to stop it. "
In naruto, the only way you can inhibit use of chakra is if you rewire it or remove it. To “stop” Chakra flow permanently would be equivalent to removing it. The safest thing you could say is that Aang rewired Ozai’s chakra system, which would not work in Naruto; Kabuto found a work around after his chakra circuit was rewired.

Bender Alchemist wrote:
To quote the Lion Turtle, who taught Aang the technique:

“In the era before the Avatar, we bent not the elements, but the energy within ourselves

To bend another’s energy, your own spirit must be unbendable”

(emphasis added)

Energybending is bending the energy within someone. The effect is the permanent stoppage of that energy. Chakra is energy with the body. Therefore, Aang should be able to bend it. How many times do I need to say it?

Nowhere does it say that Aang permanently stopped that energy. The (http://www.nick.com/shows/avatar/index.jhtml) Nickelodeon site goes into detail only about how this energybending is performed (avatar must be of pure energy), and that Ozai lost his firebending abilities. It is never stated that his energy was stopped or removed in any way. The turtle’s quote only fortifies my idea. If Aang is energybending the chakra inside someone, then in the Narutoverse, this chakra would soon return to normal as seen in Kabuto (Tsunade) and Naruto (Neji).

Bender Alchemist wrote:
Well, conjecture isn’t worth much in a debate. I still say Aang wins.

Then this argument is moot, as its conjecture at best; Naruto would never fight Aang. And my previous statement was hardly a conjecture. I wrote that despite Naruto’s seemingly lower arsenal, he provides more punch.

Braise wrote: I can’t give you physical evidence for a fictional thing. But I doubt Orochimaru would’ve summoned three gigantic paper walls to protect himself. Its assumed they’re very durable because of the description that the Rashomon gates are virtually impenetrable to any attack.

Oh, so they haven’t been used against anything but the chakra ball? So here’s how your logic goes: An untested defense with a considerable reputation couldn’t stop the chakra ball. Thus, the chakra ball is a mountain buster.



We have next to no idea just how strong the gates are. For all we know, they could be a fearsome defense in the Narutoverse just for the sake of being three solid walls. They don’t prove anything about the strength of the chakra ball aside from the fact that it can break through three stone walls.

All properties except the last? You (barely)gave me two properties, the second one showcasing a difference in properties (stopping the flow in a person can immobilize that person... kill them) seems counterproductive for your case. It only illustrates another difference. Considering the way chakra functions b/w the two series, we’ll have to argue over utility/power/punch behind each character.

They’re not identical, but they are similar enough.

Aang removed Ozai’s ability to do firebending, he never removed his energy. Aang wouldn’t be able to stop anything permanently in the Narutoverse.

Who said anything about removing? To quote the Lion Turtle, who taught Aang the technique:

“In the era before the Avatar, we bent not the elements, but the energy within ourselves

To bend another’s energy, your own spirit must be unbendable”

(emphasis added)

Energybending is bending the energy within someone. The effect is the permanent stoppage of that energy. Chakra is energy with the body. Therefore, Aang should be able to bend it. How many times do I need to say it?

Naruto (currently) has a lower repertoire of moves but more potential power than Aang. We don’t know what move he’s current concocting, but that it actually cut clean through several mountain-looking things should suggest its a pretty [url=http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/421/10/]powerful move[/url.
We still haven’t seen Naruto at his fullest (say, 8-9 tails), but even now he measures up quite well against Avatar Aang.

Yeah, and well.. yeah I registered.

Well, conjecture isn’t worth much in a debate. I still say Aang wins.

Bender Alchemist wrote:
Can you prove just how durable they are? What have the blocked before?

I can’t give you physical evidence for a fictional thing. But I doubt Orochimaru would’ve summoned three gigantic paper walls to protect himself. Its assumed they’re very durable because of the description that the Rashomon gates are virtually impenetrable to any attack.


You want proof? Fine. Both are systems of energy that flow through the body. Stopping the flow in a person can immobilize that person, prevent them from using “magic”, and, in the Narutoverse, kill them. All properties except the last are shared by both verses. That should be close enough so that what affects chi should affect chakra, and vice versa.
All properties except the last? You (barely)gave me two properties, the second one showcasing a difference in properties (stopping the flow in a person can immobilize that person... kill them) seems counterproductive for your case. It only illustrates another difference. Considering the way chakra functions b/w the two series, we’ll have to argue over utility/power/punch behind each character.

Tsunade =/= Aang. The fact is Aang can permanently stop energy flowing through the body (it’s actually called “energybending”. Chakra is energy flowing through the body. Aang should be able to stop it.

Aang removed Ozai’s ability to do firebending, he never removed his energy. Aang wouldn’t be able to stop anything permanently in the Narutoverse.

Well, Aang has another advantage- he can fly (with his glider outside the Avatar State, by himself while in the Avatar State). Also, Aang has a more diverse arsenal. Fireballs, rock bullets, ice breath, giant boulders, air slices, water whips, etc. What does Naruto have? Rasengan, rasenshuriken, shadow clones, chakra ball... that’s about it.

Naruto (currently) has a lower repertoire of moves but more potential power than Aang. We don’t know what move he’s current concocting, but that it actually cut clean through several mountain-looking things should suggest its a pretty [url=http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/421/10/]powerful move[/url.
We still haven’t seen Naruto at his fullest (say, 8-9 tails), but even now he measures up quite well against Avatar Aang.

Yeah, and well.. yeah I registered.

King Morpheus wrote: True, they don’t equal a mountain; I’ll argue they’re more than a mountain. A Rashomon gates is supposed to repel almost ANY attack. Orochimaru summoned three humongous ones, and they were obliterated. And those gates were clearly mountain-sized.
link
link

Can you prove just how durable they are? What have the blocked before?

No it isn’t unfounded to say they’re different. Its logical. You have to prove to ME that they’re similar, not the other way around. Especially considering the the fact that the creators of the series never went into detail over chi, you can’t assume they share the same properties.

You want proof? Fine. Both are systems of energy that flow through the body. Stopping the flow in a person can immobilize that person, prevent them from using “magic”, and, in the Narutoverse, kill them. All properties except the last are shared by both verses. That should be close enough so that what affects chi should affect chakra, and vice versa.

I’m arguing that the Avatar’s energy-bending move is inconsistent and virtually impossible to do in the Narutoverse due to the nature of chakra in the Naruto. Chakra in Naruto is replenishable. If Aang just “rewired” Ozai as it has , then Naruto will still be fine. Tsunade “rewired” Kabuto’s chakra system, and it eventually returned to normality.

Tsunade =/= Aang. The fact is Aang can permanently stop energy flowing through the body (it’s actually called “energybending”. Chakra is energy flowing through the body. Aang should be able to stop it.

However, on the grounds of pure power, things definitely get a little gray. We’ve seen Aang cause quite a bit of destruction, not to mention he has direct control of the elements. Naruto, on the other hand, we have witness obliterate Orochimaru’s giant Triple Rashomon, each gate said to be able to repel any attack, all while still at 4 tails.

Well, Aang has another advantage- he can fly (with his glider outside the Avatar State, by himself while in the Avatar State). Also, Aang has a more diverse arsenal. Fireballs, rock bullets, ice breath, giant boulders, air slices, water whips, etc. What does Naruto have? Rasengan, rasenshuriken, shadow clones, chakra ball... that’s about it.

Bender Alchemist wrote: Your assumption is unmerited because 3 stone walls =/= a mountain. That’s like if I said General Iroh from Avatar could mountain bust because he blasted through the wall of Ba Sing Se. Unless you can prove the walls had the same mass as a mountain, the chakra ball is not a mountain buster.

True, they don’t equal a mountain; I’ll argue they’re more than a mountain. A Rashomon gates is supposed to repel almost ANY attack. Orochimaru summoned three humongous ones, and they were obliterated. And those gates were clearly mountain-sized.
[url=http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Summoning:_Rashomon]link[/url]
[url=http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Triple_Rashomon]link[/url]


Saying that chi and chakra are “far different” is rather unfounded, because chi is never really explained in depth in Avatar. Ty Lee, a character in Avatar, was similar to Neji- she could temporarily block chi (and thus immobilize someone or stop their bending) by hitting pressure points. And the real world martial art (just about every fighting style in Avatar is based on a real world martial art) can be deadly.
No it isn’t unfounded to say they’re different. Its logical. You have to prove to ME that they’re similar, not the other way around. Especially considering the the fact that the creators of the series never went into detail over chi, you can’t assume they share the same properties.

Anyways, Aang has the ability to permanently block energy from flowing in the body. Energy flows through Narutoverse characters' bodies, thus, Aang sould be able to block it. I prefer to think that it would just rob a ninja of being able to perform jutsu (maybe Aang can do what Sarutobi did to Orochimaru) but if you want to argue that it would kill Naruto, be my guest.

I’m arguing that the Avatar’s energy-bending move is inconsistent and virtually impossible to do in the Narutoverse due to the nature of chakra in the Naruto. Chakra in Naruto is replenishable. If Aang just “rewired” Ozai as it has , then Naruto will still be fine. Tsunade “rewired” Kabuto’s chakra system, and it eventually returned to normality.

However, on the grounds of pure power, things definitely get a little gray. We’ve seen Aang cause quite a bit of destruction, not to mention he has direct control of the elements. Naruto, on the other hand, we have witness obliterate Orochimaru’s giant Triple Rashomon, each gate said to be able to repel any attack, all while still at 4 tails.

Your assumption is unmerited because 3 stone walls =/= a mountain. That’s like if I said General Iroh from Avatar could mountain bust because he blasted through the wall of Ba Sing Se. Unless you can prove the walls had the same mass as a mountain, the chakra ball is not a mountain buster.

Saying that chi and chakra are “far different” is rather unfounded, because chi is never really explained in depth in Avatar. Ty Lee, a character in Avatar, was similar to Neji- she could temporarily block chi (and thus immobilize someone or stop their bending) by hitting pressure points. And the real world martial art (just about every fighting style in Avatar is based on a real world martial art) can be deadly.

Anyways, Aang has the ability to permanently block energy from flowing in the body. Energy flows through Narutoverse characters' bodies, thus, Aang sould be able to block it. I prefer to think that it would just rob a ninja of being able to perform jutsu (maybe Aang can do what Sarutobi did to Orochimaru) but if you want to argue that it would kill Naruto, be my guest.