| 23 Jan 2007 07:26 pm |
Naru Maton Guest | this is something i find most FF fans get wrong Materia dousent improve Clouds strenth or skill at all points to remember,
1. Cloud fought Sephiroth at the end of 7 without the need of Materia, then again in Advent Children, and in both Kingdom Hearts games were he fought Sephiroth on equil terms.
2. Zack met Cloud in the mission to Nibelheim watch last order so how could he have trained Cloud?
3. Cloud isnt a true solider he is one of the lower class his genova cells and fact he was showerd in mako make him more powerful than a human.
4. Squall is a Seed the best of the best and Gun Blade Expert, he is a mercinary for hire just like solider no weaker of stronger.
| |
 | | 24 Jan 2007 01:28 am |
Guardian of MvC Rep: 74  Joined: 06 Jan 2006 Posts: 43,978 ONLINE | Just so you know, you’re talking to somebody that knows just about everything there is to know about Final Fantasy VII, so if I were you I wouldn’t attempt to argue points about the game with me.
Naru Maton wrote:
1. Cloud fought Sephiroth at the end of 7 without the need of Materia, then again in Advent Children, and in both Kingdom Hearts games were he fought Sephiroth on equil terms.
But, the Materia does boost his overall abilities, in the game equipping certain materias would have positive and negative statuses on the stats of the equipped character. This is likely because they are created of pure, condensed Mako. (or in the cases of a few, pure life stream) When a human is showered in Mako it augments their abilities, which is why Shin-Ra dipped their Soldier in Mako. So naturally even coming in contact with it will do something to you physically.
Naru Maton wrote:
2. Zack met Cloud in the mission to Nibelheim watch last order so how could he have trained Cloud?
Ever heard of Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII? It’s a game that takes place at some point before the Nibelheim mission. You take control of Zack, and are in a group of people that fight alongside you, Sephiroth, Angeal, (Zack’s teacher) Genesis, (The Sephiroth prototype) and of course a new recruit to the Shin-Ra military, Cloud Strife.
That game in itself completely destroys your “they met at the Nibelheim mission” cry. The fact is, Cloud and Zack were friends before that day 5 years before the events of FF7, and the only explanation as to why Cloud is as skilled as he is with a blade, is that he was partially trained by Zack or even better, Angeal.
Naru Maton wrote:
3. Cloud isnt a true solider he is one of the lower class his genova cells and fact he was showerd in mako make him more powerful than a human.
Cloud was at the bottom of the chain, a mere foot soldier. But he was so powerful because he is a failed (or actually if you pay attention to the game, the only success) Sephiroth Clone. He was subjected to abnormal amounts of Mako and injected with a high level of Jenova Cells while he was trapped in the test tube in the Shin-Ra mannor’s basement.
Naru Maton wrote:
4. Squall is a Seed the best of the best and Gun Blade Expert, he is a mercinary for hire just like solider no weaker of stronger.
He became a SEED at the beginning of the game, he wasn’t even in the highest level. He got stronger and stronger, but the point is, he is still young and is still just a student. He lacks the battlefield experience that Cloud has.
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^ made by Sawah <3 | | | 24 Jan 2007 08:58 am |
Naru Maton Guest | kk Cid my knolage of FF 7 and the combined knolage of my freinds (total 7 buffs)...
1. Materia is and is stated to be powers forged in the life stream granting that person with an ability that mako was crafted to do hence each Mako has an ability it is set to preform, your guess at it having an affect on the persons pysical status is a theory at best my freind (and as a true fan you should no better than that kk).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materia (refferance)
2. i like this one no i have never played the game BUT! if trained by Zack Cloud was..he would have preformed mutch better in Last Order were he was barely able to even use a sword, after this he is given Genova Cells becomes the one true Sephiroth clone and heads of to Migar with are ill fated Zack.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Order_-Final_Fantasy_VII-
you no the rest of the story Zack dies Cloud heads for Migar and teams up with avolanch as a mercanery for hire, now when and were was Cloud trained in all this???, mabe he is just a natural like Sephiroth being a perfect Clone and all...but being a true fan i dont deal in theory lol.
3. as we all no Soldier are naturaly stronger than normal humans definately one with Genova Cells, as seen by Sephiroth pulling Genovas statue of the wall and Cloud lifting himself and Tifa up that cliff with one arm at the end of 7, never mind the fact his sword is huge.
4.yes Squall was a grunt but became an elite as did Cloud, he was able to equil Seifer there top ranking student who he easily surpasses throughout the game and is a skilled leader who actually aquired his military status unlike Cloud.
also Balamb garden is a Military Academy not some high school you refer too, and all candidates are taken in around the age of seven so id say Squall has quight alot of battle experiance come the end of FF 8 wouldent you say?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balamb_Garden
| | | 24 Jan 2007 12:03 pm |
Guardian of MvC Rep: 74Joined: 06 Jan 2006 Posts: 43,978 ONLINE | Naru Maton wrote:
1. Materia is and is stated to be powers forged in the life stream granting that person with an ability that mako was crafted to do hence each Mako has an ability it is set to preform, your guess at it having an affect on the persons pysical status is a theory at best my freind (and as a true fan you should no better than that kk).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materia (refferance)
wikipedia wrote:
Most materia lower one or more of the physical characteristics of the character they are equipped on (primarily HP, but also Defense). Therefore, a character stocked with many materia will have many abilities at their disposal but will suffer in other areas of performance, making the balanced application of materia an important ability to master.
Even the article you posted seems to agree with me that Materia has a physical effect on the one it’s equipped to. Point being, you can argue this all you want with me, but until you can prove to me that giving a mastered Ultima materia to Cloud doesn’t have an effect on his physical stats my argument stands as being true and factual being based off the game itself.
Naru Maton wrote:
2. i like this one no i have never played the game BUT! if trained by Zack Cloud was..he would have preformed mutch better in Last Order were he was barely able to even use a sword, after this he is given Genova Cells becomes the one true Sephiroth clone and heads of to Migar with are ill fated Zack.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Order_-Final_Fantasy_VII-
you no the rest of the story Zack dies Cloud heads for Migar and teams up with avolanch as a mercanery for hire, now when and were was Cloud trained in all this???, mabe he is just a natural like Sephiroth being a perfect Clone and all...but being a true fan i dont deal in theory lol.
Who said what I posted was nothing but theory? It has merit to it. You theory on Cloud not being trained because of how he did against Sephiroth can easily be disputed because of two simple facts.
1. - In Last Order, which I saw about a year and a half ago, Zack fights Sephiroth in that same reactor before Cloud does. He is able to do virtually nothing against him, even Zack was clearly outmatched.
2. - Cloud picked up the sword and stabbed Sephiroth in the back. Afterwards he went outside to check on Tifa, Sephiroth comes out of the room with Jenova’s head and gets charged by Cloud. Sephiroth uses Cloud momentum to deflect the buster sword and then stabs Cloud.
Now my question for you is this, where in that fight is there any room for Cloud to have shown any potential? He gets impaled through the shoulder after he makes one attack. Sephiroth disposed of Zack almost just as easily.
One more thing to point out, you contradicted yourself in your paragraph. You said basically said that Cloud had no experience with a blade in last order which is why he lost so easily, but later on you suggest that he may have be a natural with a sword. Natural abilities don’t come and go, so if you think he had little to no abilities in Last Order then the only explanation as to why he’s so skilled at the beginning of VII is he was trained somewhere along the way. And if you deny his being trained at some point after the Nibelheim incident then you admit to him being skilled in the fight with Sephiorth which also reinforces my theory.
Oh and one more thing, Sephiroth isn’t naturally talented with a Sword either. Look up Crisis Core on Wikipedia and read about Angeal, he’s Sephiroth and Zack’s mentor. Meaning he trained both of them.
Naru Maton wrote:
3. as we all no Soldier are naturaly stronger than normal humans definately one with Genova Cells, as seen by Sephiroth pulling Genovas statue of the wall and Cloud lifting himself and Tifa up that cliff with one arm at the end of 7, never mind the fact his sword is huge.
And what does that have to do with what I said? That’s a watered down version of what I said about Soldier’s strength being augmented because of them being showered in Mako.
Naru Maton wrote:
4.yes Squall was a grunt but became an elite as did Cloud, he was able to equil Seifer there top ranking student who he easily surpasses throughout the game and is a skilled leader who actually aquired his military status unlike Cloud.
also Balamb garden is a Military Academy not some high school you refer too, and all candidates are taken in around the age of seven so id say Squall has quight alot of battle experiance come the end of FF 8 wouldent you say?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balamb_Garden
First of all, I didn’t refer to Balamb Garden as a “high school” I called it an academy, which is exactly what it is. They call it an academy in the game. Second, Squall had next to no battle experience at the beginning of FF8. This is proven because he hadn’t even taken the field test to capture his first GF yet. That test to acquire Ifrit was the first time Squall was working in the field. His first true battle experience was during the Field Exam at Dollet.
Squall is 18 years old and hadn’t had much battle experience before that age. His only experience comes from his training sessions and IF he ever ventured into the training grounds, which is unlikely because of the way he had to have everything explained to him.
Cloud on the other hand is 21 and has been fight since he was at least 16, that’s using the minimal of 5 years that the actual game gives us. He went through rigorous training trying to get into the top ranks of Soldier and fought alongside and held his own with Zack, Angeal, Genesis, and Sephiroth.
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^ made by Sawah <3Last edited 24 Jan 2007 12:06 pm by Cid | | | 24 Jan 2007 07:27 pm |
Naru Maton Guest | i mean no offence what so ever but...
1. read it again materia lowers pysical atributes nothing about strenthening, all you did was prove they dont increase states just grant the user another ability
2. Cloud got wiped one move, Zac fought him in combat and used Blade Beam theres a differance, as for clouds potentiol it was after he was given the Genova Cells and put through Mako for 5 years.
3. cloud wasnt even a Soldier he was a Shinra Guard a low grunt so he had little to no experiance in the sort of combat Squall did (he trained for 10 years to become an elite, Cloud from what your saying only rechived 5) and Squall is 17 my freind remember.
4. also id like to include it says nothing about who trained Sephiroth apart from here,
http://nolimitsxc.tripod.com/new_page_1.htm
Profesor Gast and Hojo taught and trained him how to use his powers.
also we see Squall has had combat training with Seifer before when Quistis asks if he was training with him again after the opening.
| | | 24 Jan 2007 08:37 pm |
Guardian of MvC Rep: 74Joined: 06 Jan 2006 Posts: 43,978 ONLINE | Naru Maton wrote:
1. read it again materia lowers pysical atributes nothing about strenthening, all you did was prove they dont increase states just grant the user another ability
It has a positive effect on certain stats, most of it increases Magic Defense and and Magical Attack. It proves that materia does have a positive effect on a person physically.
Naru Maton wrote:
2. Cloud got wiped one move, Zac fought him in combat and used Blade Beam theres a differance, as for clouds potentiol it was after he was given the Genova Cells and put through Mako for 5 years.
How can somebody become good with a weapon over 5 years when they didn’t even pick a sword up? Jenova cells don’t increase somebodies skill, they make the person physically stronger, faster, harder to kill, and allows Sephiroth to control them. What do you not understand about that?
Also, Cloud was taken down in one strike, but Zack was taken down in three. The first attack that connected from Sephiroth injured Zack’s arm, the second threw him down in front of Jenova, and the third and final attack knocked him out of the room and into the pod outside. Everything else was mostly Sephiroth parrying Zack’s strikes, there may have been two or three other times that Sephiroth took a swing at Zack. He was clearly outmatched, Sephiroth isn’t an enemy that can be taken down easily, so it’s understandable that Cloud, a rookie in training, would make one mistake and get stabbed in the shoulder.
The idea that Zack gave Cloud a bit of training at some point before the Nibelheim incident is a lot less farfetched then the idea that Cloud became very skilled because he was showered in Mako and injected with Jenova.
Naru Maton wrote:
3. cloud wasnt even a Soldier he was a Shinra Guard a low grunt so he had little to no experiance in the sort of combat Squall did (he trained for 10 years to become an elite, Cloud from what your saying only rechived 5) and Squall is 17 my freind remember.
First of all, Cloud was in Soldier, he wasn’t a high ranking member, but he was in soldier. Soldier is the name of Shin-Ra’s military force.
Second, I’ve told you before, Squall’s only combat experience before the game’s beginning was training, training is not combat experience.
Third, I said Cloud had a minimal of 5 years combat experience, that would make him 16 when he joined Soldier, but he left Nibelheim when he was 10 or 11, he went through at least 5 years of training for the military before he went into combat. that makes 10 years of experience by the beginning of FF7. Added on to the fact that he’s older then Squall by 4 years gives him even more experience, and if you’re counting Advent Children into the equation, that’s 6 years, wanna go further? Dirge of Cerberus gives Cloud another year, and his experience fighting against Deep Ground would give him a nice boost.
Cloud has 7 years of experience on Squall, he knows more about how fighting is done because he’s been in it more.
Naru Maton wrote:
4. also id like to include it says nothing about who trained Sephiroth apart from here,
http://nolimitsxc.tripod.com/new_page_1.htm
Profesor Gast and Hojo taught and trained him how to use his powers.
First, that info on Sephiroth is more fake than anything I’ve ever seen, Tayeko Kisato? Who the hell is that? That person was never mentioned in FF7 or any of the compilation titles. Second, you need to do some research on Crisis Core, watch some trailers or something, if you pay attention it’s clear as day that Sephiroth looked yo to Angeal as a mentor. In fact, most believe that something happened to Angeal right before the Nibelheim Mission (most likely he sacrifices himself to stop Genesis' ambitions) and made Sephiroth very upset, which made him less stable and ultimately lead to his downfall.
Naru Maton wrote:
also we see Squall has had combat training with Seifer before when Quistis asks if he was training with him again after the opening.
There, I bolded the only word in that sentence that really matters.
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^ made by Sawah <3 | | | 24 Jan 2007 09:26 pm |
UBER 1337 Poster Rep: 1 Joined: 05 May 2006 Posts: 1,010 OFFLINE | So basically this debate is about who has had more training?
| | | 24 Jan 2007 10:05 pm |
Guardian of MvC Rep: 74Joined: 06 Jan 2006 Posts: 43,978 ONLINE | It’s turned into that and some other things
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^ made by Sawah <3 | | | 25 Jan 2007 05:25 pm |
Darkness Guest | my my onece again someone shows us how so mutch can mean so little,
It has a positive effect on certain stats, most of it increases Magic Defense and and Magical Attack. It proves that materia does have a positive effect on a person physically.
douse it say that...dident think so.
How can somebody become good with a weapon over 5 years when they didn’t even pick a sword up? Jenova cells don’t increase somebodies skill, they make the person physically stronger, faster, harder to kill, and allows Sephiroth to control them. What do you not understand about that?
Cloud is a clone of sephiroth just like Kadaj who are all naturaly powerful, and skilled kk.
Also, Cloud was taken down in one strike, but Zack was taken down in three. The first attack that connected from Sephiroth injured Zack’s arm, the second threw him down in front of Jenova, and the third and final attack knocked him out of the room and into the pod outside. Everything else was mostly Sephiroth parrying Zack’s strikes, there may have been two or three other times that Sephiroth took a swing at Zack. He was clearly outmatched, Sephiroth isn’t an enemy that can be taken down easily, so it’s understandable that Cloud, a rookie in training, would make one mistake and get stabbed in the shoulder.
my my what bullshit Zac did far better actually fending against Sephiroth, when cloud attacks Sephiroth is injured and still beats the young Noob.
The idea that Zack gave Cloud a bit of training at some point before the Nibelheim incident is a lot less farfetched then the idea that Cloud became very skilled because he was showered in Mako and injected with Jenova.
actually it isnt Cloud saw Zack fight and went through the same modifications as Soldier then had Genova Cells added making him more powerful, then he was a clone of Sephiroth the man who flew through the ranks of Soldier.
First of all, Cloud was in Soldier, he wasn’t a high ranking member, but he was in soldier. Soldier is the name of Shin-Ra’s military force.
look at your prechiose crisis core hes a Shinra Guard as in nothing.
Second, I’ve told you before, Squall’s only combat experience before the game’s beginning was training, training is not combat experience.
yes and ill bet seeD training far surpasses that of a security Guard even Laguna would be higher rank.
Third, I said Cloud had a minimal of 5 years combat experience, that would make him 16 when he joined Soldier, but he left Nibelheim when he was 10 or 11, he went through at least 5 years of training for the military before he went into combat. that makes 10 years of experience by the beginning of FF7. Added on to the fact that he’s older then Squall by 4 years gives him even more experience, and if you’re counting Advent Children into the equation, that’s 6 years, wanna go further? Dirge of Cerberus gives Cloud another year, and his experience fighting against Deep Ground would give him a nice boost.
yes thats all well and good my freind but that never happend as in weres the proof as in wtf is this shit, were as we no Squall was trained for 10 years and was justly propeard for combat situations and also the two years after 7 lol when he was a dilivery boy mwha.
First, that info on Sephiroth is more fake than anything I’ve ever seen, Tayeko Kisato? Who the hell is that? That person was never mentioned in FF7 or any of the compilation titles. Second, you need to do some research on Crisis Core, watch some trailers or something, if you pay attention it’s clear as day that Sephiroth looked yo to Angeal as a mentor. In fact, most believe that something happened to Angeal right before the Nibelheim Mission (most likely he sacrifices himself to stop Genesis' ambitions) and made Sephiroth very upset, which made him less stable and ultimately lead to his downfall.
wtf none of that is true are you completely dumb the findings of his origens is his downfall nothing more stop bringing shame to FF fans.
Naru Maton wrote: also we see Squall has had combat training with Seifer before when Quistis asks if he was training with him again after the opening.
There, I bolded the only word in that sentence that really matters.
more than i can say for Cloud who is never seen in combat till 7
| | | 25 Jan 2007 05:42 pm |
Naru Maton Guest | ohhhhhh now theres nothing for me to put ashole!!!
| | | 25 Jan 2007 05:44 pm |
Pastafarian Rep: 46 Joined: 13 Nov 2006 Posts: 13,018 OFFLINE | I ahte FF bloody turn based crap.
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 | | | 25 Jan 2007 05:47 pm |
Naru Maton Guest | lol y would u post that
| | | 25 Jan 2007 05:53 pm |
Pastafarian Rep: 46Joined: 13 Nov 2006 Posts: 13,018 OFFLINE | 9 posts till a 1000!
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| | | 25 Jan 2007 05:55 pm |
Naru Maton Guest | ohh i getcha
| | | 25 Jan 2007 06:01 pm |
Guardian of MvC Rep: 74Joined: 06 Jan 2006 Posts: 43,978 ONLINE | Darkness wrote:
my my onece again someone shows us how so mutch can mean so little,
The things I say and type mean a lot more than some punk who can’t even spell. You’re really beginning to annoy me, and don’t think that changing your name is gonna help, I know for a fact that you’re still the same person that made this topic as only an idiot of you caliber would spell Jenova “Genova”.
Darkness wrote:
douse it say that...dident think so.
No, wikipedia doesn’t say that, but that doesn’t mean that it’s not true. Go play the godamned game and find out for yourself that I’m fucking correct.
Darkness wrote:
Cloud is a clone of sephiroth just like Kadaj who are all naturaly powerful, and skilled kk.
First of all, Kadaj isn’t a Sephiroth clone, that just goes to show how little you actually know. Second, Kadaj, Yazoo, and Loz are all the essence of Sephiroth, that have Sephiroth’s skill because they are remnants of Sephiroth. That explains their abilities, not that they are naturally skilled.
Darkness wrote:
my my what bullshit Zac did far better actually fending against Sephiroth, when cloud attacks Sephiroth is injured and still beats the young Noob.
Anybody but you could clearly see that Sephiroth was going easy on Zack, he wasn’t fighting to his full abilities, unlike Zack. Cloud stabbed Sephiroth from behind and pissed him off, so Sephiroth didn’t toy with Cloud. If Sephiroth had done with Cloud like he did with Zack, the fight would have been similar.
Darkness wrote:
actually it isnt Cloud saw Zack fight and went through the same modifications as Soldier then had Genova Cells added making him more powerful, then he was a clone of Sephiroth the man who flew through the ranks of Soldier.
Cloud did observe Zack’s fighting style but that still doesn’t account for Cloud’s skill. He was trained by somebody, and that somebody could have only been one of three people. Zack, Angeal, or Sephiroth himself.
Darkness wrote:
look at your prechiose crisis core hes a Shinra Guard as in nothing.
If he was a guard he wouldn’t be on a mission with and elite and 1st class soldier. He was a foot soldier in ShinRa’s military force called Soldier.
Darkness wrote:
yes and ill bet seeD training far surpasses that of a security Guard even Laguna would be higher rank.
Yeah, SEED training does surpass a security guard, but it’s probably on the level of training for Soldier.
Darkness wrote:
yes thats all well and good my freind but that never happend as in weres the proof as in wtf is this shit, were as we no Squall was trained for 10 years and was justly propeard for combat situations and also the two years after 7 lol when he was a dilivery boy mwha.
WTF do you mean it never happened, do you even know what you’re talking about? My proof is in the compilation of Final Fantasy VII you idiot, up until now everything I said has been backed up with facts, unlike you.
Darkness wrote:
wtf none of that is true are you completely dumb the findings of his origens is his downfall nothing more stop bringing shame to FF fans.
Me stop bringing shame to FF fans? Maybe you should take your own advice. Why don’t you do watch all the Crisis Core trailers and find out for yourself?
Darkness wrote:
more than i can say for Cloud who is never seen in combat till 7
No, he is seen in combat several years before 7, but you wouldn’t know that because you’re apparently not a true fan.
Now I’m just about done with you, this is getting very frustrating you’re just like another dumbass I know. You’re both the same, when you’re faced with facts that contradict what you know you immediately say it’s a lie. I said it to him and I’ll say it to you as well, people like you who refuse to believe the truth and claim to know everything about something they seem to know nothing about are the scum of the internet. You’re beginning to annoy me so just buzz off already.
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^ made by Sawah <3 | | | 25 Jan 2007 06:11 pm |
Darkness Guest | thats cus your a thick fanboy who has printed no facts but says he has Naru did so bite me ashole, im not a true fan and i still no better than you everything you just said is all oppinion based, and your only getting pissed cus your used to getting your own way you spoild brat.
P.S Manchester Kev and Derdev no i can spell correct half the time i was merly copying you guys,
as only an idiot of you caliber (lol)
| | | 25 Jan 2007 06:28 pm |
Darkness Guest | yeah bitch!!!
| | | 25 Jan 2007 06:34 pm |
The Clown Prince of Crime Rep: 20 Joined: 10 Nov 2006 Posts: 7,792 OFFLINE | Yet again thats why noone likes you.You insult people for going against your opinion.Read what he said, he’s threw with you because he finds your attitude annoying.
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 | | | 25 Jan 2007 06:45 pm |
Pastafarian Rep: 46Joined: 13 Nov 2006 Posts: 13,018 OFFLINE | I AM UBERRIFIC!
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| | | 25 Jan 2007 09:45 pm |
Darkness Guest | dam it Manny you make it hard for me to like you sometimes, im always like this DEAL WITH IT!
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