The bottom line is that the Bible promises that if you seek after God with all your heart you will find Him. It also promises that if you ask you will receive. We can understand these verses in the whole context of Scripture to mean that if you are eager to find the person of God, He will make Himself known to you. You must simply knock and be willing to accept what you find.
On behalf of all the Christians I know who have experienced Jesus in a very real way, I hope you will receive the testimony of Christians who say God can be known beyond a shadow of a doubt AND He calls you to that knowledge. People like me who say this are not ignorant nor basing their statement on a philosophy or tradition. Believe me, the sacrifice that comes when you follow Christ is not worth tradition. It is only sustainable if you gain Jesus. What we say means Christ does not call you to blind faith or to uninformed faith. Jesus calls us to relationship based on reality.
What would need to happen to get you to believe? A neon sign falling from the sky? A prophet who knows everything about you to your amazement? Jesus coming on the clouds before you?
Allow me to encourage you to first examine your heart and shed it of any sense of abandonment, anger, coldness, or confusion about who God is. Remove the human tendency to judge God and suppose that our ways are equal to His ways. If we are looking for GOD, then by the very search we are looking for someone higher than ourselves..
Move yourself to a blank slate first. Then ask yourself, what do you dare ask the Creator of the Universe to do to show you He loves you? The Bible says not to put your God to a test. So I am not speaking of a test. I am merely suggesting, ask God to reveal Himself to you. Ask Him to heal your heart.
If I am right, and Jesus exists and loves you, then you have the most amazing experience of your life to gain and grow in (you don’t arrive at Christianity, you grow in Christ everlasting).
If I am wrong, you have lost nothing.
And to answer your question about how this thread is proof that God puts in us all a desire to know Him.... The idea that a self-proclaimed unbeliever is on a thread discussing Christ shows me that you think the topic is worthy enough to discuss. You see, He gets glory even when we push Him away. His love is sufficient.
I may not be smart enough to convince you. But I am real enough to tell you, the miracles I have witnessed in my life are beyond dispute. And the love of Christ will never leave you or forsake you, no matter what. If you seek Him with all your heart, you will not have to squash doubt or suspend reality to become a believer. Your eyes will be open to a truth so real, you will wonder how people live without it.
Watchman wrote:
I dont want to just give you a casual answer because I want you to identify who exactly is this persona that you have identified as the “devil”....
p.s.
although the Bible is written in human language it is not written in the mentality of men..
How can you say that?! The “god” from the bible has the same mentality as the Greek gods, which everyone agrees came from the minds of men. (Jealousy of worshiping other gods, making bets with other gods[the devil in the story of Job], sacrifices, having favorite races of people and “taking their side”...) There is nothing “divine” about the mentality of the bible at all. “God” has very VERY human traits. This is revised in the NT where it focuses almost exclusively on Jesus, leaving talk about god almost absent. I’m aware that Jesus is suppose to be god, but this is still nothing new either. There have been stories of “godmen” throughout history in religions long before Jesus.
opinions are like assholes...they stink and everyone has one....Have you read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation or have you just skimmed it and read what you want and come to your own conclusion....Thats the problem with people who claim God is this and that, trying to see Divinty through their own shallow and pitifull humanity. The Bible’s standard of truth goes beyond your conception and imagination because itis a sentient book, filled with a person..the person of Christ who is the Spirit...The truth this spirit gives through this Word are the highest in this universe and usually meets our need...You should try it
Have you read any pre-christian resurrection stories, or looked up the fact that Jehova was a pagan god with a real bad attitude problem, or have you conveniently skipped over them? Just re-phrasing your own question from another perspective to show how self righteous, arrogant and ignorant it is. No personal offense meant, but you should research the origins of your holy book, just like the (very much human) authors of it did.
how do you authenticate pre-christian ressurection stories?
The question still stands none the less.....I’m sick of conclusive statements that are totally based on assumptions, hearsay and speculation.....this time the foot (a modest size 14i might add) is going down....HAVE YOU READ THE BIBLE FROM GENESIS TO REVELATION......???. As for the origions, it has none....1 Tim 3.16
SeekAndFind wrote:
The truth is that science has never disproved anything in the Bible. Science continually points to what is written in the Bible.
Give me a few examples.
Ok: Here are some examples of how the Bible, which came before modern scientific thought, is in line with hard fact scientific discovery and even some of the leading theories:
1) The order of Creation as told in Genesis (that is, the order in which God created things: light, creation of Earth, water expanse covering the Earth until land shaped up, creating creatures of the water, creating creatures of the land) is the same order that science believes they were created (big bang=creation of light; creation of Earth; large continent dividing into seven continents=water expanse covering earth until land shaped up; creation of sea creatures first; creation of land creatures second). It’s all the same order as modern day science would point us to. In the Bible, man is created last. So to in science. The Bible is finite in its wisdom. Nothing science proves as fact (not theory) contradicts it.
2) evidence of a large flood as told about in the story of Noah has been found by scientists
3) all of the historical events of the Bible — who reigned, who won the wars, etc. — are confirmed by independent historical and archaeology sources (different kind of science but same idea)
4) even the theory of relativity is alluded to in the Bible. To God a thousand years is like a day and a day is like a thousand years.
If you can look at the alignment of the planets, the spacial relationship between the Earth and the sun that makes it possible for human life (as well as the dozens of other necessary conditions for life), the fantastic beauty of nature, and the existence of love (which, in its purest form, serves no biological purpose because it causes you to sacrifice; quite counterintuitive to survival of fittest) — if you can look at all these things and see no evidence of a Creator then you’ve settled in for turning your back on logic.
If you can look at the same thing and say the Flying Spagetti Monster is not projecting it all into are minds then you have no logic. Honestly though, Thats insane. Why would you even use that. No offence. Love serves a purpose, it will help us to go out and ## some girl and reproduce.
To his question to my post I respond: You can call the Creator a flying spagetti monster if you want. The point is, you have to acknowledge that the incredible and fantastic reality of the heavens (not to mention the detail workings of the earth) were created by a being that is more intelligent and supreme that us. If you have studied physics, you will realize that the odds of Earth’s ability to support like are statistically impossible. As the Bible states, the heavens declare His glory.
If we focus the conversation to outer space alone, and we understand the mouth-dropping science that is behind the function and beauty of just our own galaxy, we must concede that an intelligence greater than our own put it into existence. Logic — romance aside — supports this assumption.
The proof of something divine and intelligent beyond ourselves is found in all of these things and dozens of more real things.
And those are?
The fact that every civilization on the face of the Earth has the idea of God and worships God — that even the most oppressive regimes have not squashed the idea of God. That civilizations that have had no contact with other groups have ideas of a Creator — many of them with the same creation stories. It is evidence that there is a longing within us all to discover Him. This longing was placed in us by Him. And this thread/debate is evidence of that as well.
Religion was not invented by government. Faith, particularly the Christian faith, came under the persecution of the government. The calling on the hearts of the faithful was beyond human control. We know this because all of the authors of the New Testament but one were martyred. They did not die for “faith” in the abstract. They died because they saw Jesus die and said they saw Him rise. A lot of people would die for an idea. Not many would die for something they knew to be a lie.
The Creator loves you more than His own son. What freedom there is in receiving that love.
Remember, God will answer the questions you have if you go to Him in hope. But He cannot give answers to the proud. We are too busy interrupting Him.
He sure as hell fucked up trying to talk to me considering I relized he was not helping me. As I said, I used to be a hardcore christian.
First — God doesn’t make mistakes. Second, being hardcore religious and surrendering to Christ are two different things. A heart that has truly surrendered to Christ is never lost. And if indeed your heart ever belonged to Christ, He will woo you back like a Father who never quits loving his son. You cannot escape his love, brother. He will never leave you or forsake you. Never.
... until he sends you to hell to burn forever in pain and agony
Watchman wrote:
how do you authenticate pre-christian ressurection stories?
The question still stands none the less.....I’m sick of conclusive statements that are totally based on assumptions, hearsay and speculation.....this time the foot (a modest size 14i might add) is going down....HAVE YOU READ THE BIBLE FROM GENESIS TO REVELATION......???. As for the origions, it has none....1 Tim 3.16
How do you authenticate your statement that the bible has no origins? A quote from it does not count, that’s like saying 'What I tell you is true, because I said it is'. I respect the right for people to believe what they want to believe. I do not, however, have any respect for willful ignorance and refusal to question their own faith to find the truth at its core rather than the 'what is written is literally true and any inconvenient contradictions be damned' mentalty which is the mark of fundamentalists and the terminally uneducated.ignorant.
The bottom line is that the Bible promises that if you seek after God with all your heart you will find Him. It also promises that if you ask you will receive. We can understand these verses in the whole context of Scripture to mean that if you are eager to find the person of God, He will make Himself known to you. You must simply knock and be willing to accept what you find.
Sigh....No. I am going to be skeptical. If you can point to evidence of how it is true and that it is truly god’s word then I will believe it. Seriously...Lets assume there is a god. Prove to me it is the christian god.
On behalf of all the Christians I know who have experienced Jesus in a very real way, I hope you will receive the testimony of Christians who say God can be known beyond a shadow of a doubt AND He calls you to that knowledge. People like me who say this are not ignorant nor basing their statement on a philosophy or tradition. Believe me, the sacrifice that comes when you follow Christ is not worth tradition. It is only sustainable if you gain Jesus. What we say means Christ does not call you to blind faith or to uninformed faith. Jesus calls us to relationship based on reality.
Thats what I used to think. I had so called 'expirences' It was just me wanting to believe the damned thing.
What would need to happen to get you to believe? A neon sign falling from the sky? A prophet who knows everything about you to your amazement? Jesus coming on the clouds before you?
I would need to hear God myself, It would help if I saw Jesus too. This would be evidence enough for me.
Allow me to encourage you to first examine your heart and shed it of any sense of abandonment, anger, coldness, or confusion about who God is. Remove the human tendency to judge God and suppose that our ways are equal to His ways. If we are looking for GOD, then by the very search we are looking for someone higher than ourselves..
I was looking for god for a long time sir...I never found him.
Move yourself to a blank slate first. Then ask yourself, what do you dare ask the Creator of the Universe to do to show you He loves you? The Bible says not to put your God to a test. So I am not speaking of a test. I am merely suggesting, ask God to reveal Himself to you. Ask Him to heal your heart.
Why can’t he just reviel himself to the entire world? If he loves us so much and doesn’t want us to go to hell he should. He should have seen skeptics coming and he should be proving he is real to us.
If I am right, and Jesus exists and loves you, then you have the most amazing experience of your life to gain and grow in (you don’t arrive at Christianity, you grow in Christ everlasting).
I’ve had way happier times since I’ve left.
If I am wrong, you have lost nothing.
And to answer your question about how this thread is proof that God puts in us all a desire to know Him....
Pescler’s wager(sp?). I have lost something if I were to follow and it turns out I was wrong. How about my whole life pretty much? All those Sundays,prayers,etc.
The idea that a self-proclaimed unbeliever is on a thread discussing Christ shows me that you think the topic is worthy enough to discuss. You see, He gets glory even when we push Him away. His love is sufficient.
This is a debate thread after all...
I may not be smart enough to convince you. But I am real enough to tell you, the miracles I have witnessed in my life are beyond dispute. And the love of Christ will never leave you or forsake you, no matter what. If you seek Him with all your heart, you will not have to squash doubt or suspend reality to become a believer. Your eyes will be open to a truth so real, you will wonder how people live without it.
Watchman wrote:
how do you authenticate pre-christian ressurection stories?
The question still stands none the less.....I’m sick of conclusive statements that are totally based on assumptions, hearsay and speculation.....this time the foot (a modest size 14i might add) is going down....HAVE YOU READ THE BIBLE FROM GENESIS TO REVELATION......???. As for the origions, it has none....1 Tim 3.16
How do you authenticate your statement that the bible has no origins? A quote from it does not count, that’s like saying 'What I tell you is true, because I said it is'. I respect the right for people to believe what they want to believe. I do not, however, have any respect for willful ignorance and refusal to question their own faith to find the truth at its core rather than the 'what is written is literally true and any inconvenient contradictions be damned' mentalty which is the mark of fundamentalists and the terminally uneducated.ignorant.
i thought you would attempt to answer the question but...ho hum....you do realise that the Bible undergoes a great deal of scrutiny these days. Yet more and more, as it is placed under the scope of newer and ever-advancing technology, its veracity is finding confirmation. Be it archeological evidence or areas of science, the authentication of the Bible continues to grow............ It interfaces accurately with science and history.
Why is this so important?............ Because the nature of spiritual truth claims is that they cannot be directly verified. How can we directly verify whether God is personal or impersonal? What the afterlife is like? Whether salvation is by works or by grace?................ If all we have to go on is the assertion of the “scriptures," there would be no way to decide. But if that same text made factual assertions about areas we could test—like, say, scientific or historical matters—then we could indirectly test their spiritual truth claims. If they interface inaccurately in these areas we can test, why should we trust them in the areas we can’t test?........ On the other hand, if they do interface accurately in these testable areas, we have a basis for taking them seriously in their spiritual truth claims. Finally, while I cannot say that archeology proves the authority of the Bible, it is fair to say that archeological evidence has provided external confirmation of hundreds of biblical statements.
oi’re
The “scriptures” of Hinduism and Buddhism never claim to be a revelation from God for the obvious reason that the eastern god is not a Person who speaks. Rather, they claim only to be human speculation.
Likewise, the sacred Chinese books claim no supernatural inspiration or authority, Confucianism being less a religion than a venerable moral tradition. In fact, only the Bible and those religions rooted in the Bible (including Islam) claim to have books that are actual revelation from God.
Watchman wrote:
how do you authenticate pre-christian ressurection stories?
The question still stands none the less.....I’m sick of conclusive statements that are totally based on assumptions, hearsay and speculation.....this time the foot (a modest size 14i might add) is going down....HAVE YOU READ THE BIBLE FROM GENESIS TO REVELATION......???. As for the origions, it has none....1 Tim 3.16
How do you authenticate your statement that the bible has no origins? A quote from it does not count, that’s like saying 'What I tell you is true, because I said it is'. I respect the right for people to believe what they want to believe. I do not, however, have any respect for willful ignorance and refusal to question their own faith to find the truth at its core rather than the 'what is written is literally true and any inconvenient contradictions be damned' mentalty which is the mark of fundamentalists and the terminally uneducated.ignorant.
i thought you would attempt to answer the question but...ho hum....you do realise that the Bible undergoes a great deal of scrutiny these days. Yet more and more, as it is placed under the scope of newer and ever-advancing technology, its veracity is finding confirmation. Be it archeological evidence or areas of science, the authentication of the Bible continues to grow............ It interfaces accurately with science and history.
Why is this so important?............ Because the nature of spiritual truth claims is that they cannot be directly verified. How can we directly verify whether God is personal or impersonal? What the afterlife is like? Whether salvation is by works or by grace?................ If all we have to go on is the assertion of the “scriptures," there would be no way to decide. But if that same text made factual assertions about areas we could test—like, say, scientific or historical matters—then we could indirectly test their spiritual truth claims. If they interface inaccurately in these areas we can test, why should we trust them in the areas we can’t test?........ On the other hand, if they do interface accurately in these testable areas, we have a basis for taking them seriously in their spiritual truth claims. Finally, while I cannot say that archeology proves the authority of the Bible, it is fair to say that archeological evidence has provided external confirmation of hundreds of biblical statements.
oi’re
The “scriptures” of Hinduism and Buddhism never claim to be a revelation from God for the obvious reason that the eastern god is not a Person who speaks. Rather, they claim only to be human speculation.
Likewise, the sacred Chinese books claim no supernatural inspiration or authority, Confucianism being less a religion than a venerable moral tradition. In fact, only the Bible and those religions rooted in the Bible (including Islam) claim to have books that are actual revelation from God.
SeekAndFind wrote:
The truth is that science has never disproved anything in the Bible. Science continually points to what is written in the Bible.
Give me a few examples.
Ok: Here are some examples of how the Bible, which came before modern scientific thought, is in line with hard fact scientific discovery and even some of the leading theories:
1) The order of Creation as told in Genesis (that is, the order in which God created things: light, creation of Earth, water expanse covering the Earth until land shaped up, creating creatures of the water, creating creatures of the land) is the same order that science believes they were created (big bang=creation of light; creation of Earth; large continent dividing into seven continents=water expanse covering earth until land shaped up; creation of sea creatures first; creation of land creatures second). It’s all the same order as modern day science would point us to. In the Bible, man is created last. So to in science. The Bible is finite in its wisdom. Nothing science proves as fact (not theory) contradicts it.
2) evidence of a large flood as told about in the story of Noah has been found by scientists
3) all of the historical events of the Bible — who reigned, who won the wars, etc. — are confirmed by independent historical and archaeology sources (different kind of science but same idea)
4) even the theory of relativity is alluded to in the Bible. To God a thousand years is like a day and a day is like a thousand years.
If you can look at the alignment of the planets, the spacial relationship between the Earth and the sun that makes it possible for human life (as well as the dozens of other necessary conditions for life), the fantastic beauty of nature, and the existence of love (which, in its purest form, serves no biological purpose because it causes you to sacrifice; quite counterintuitive to survival of fittest) — if you can look at all these things and see no evidence of a Creator then you’ve settled in for turning your back on logic.
If you can look at the same thing and say the Flying Spagetti Monster is not projecting it all into are minds then you have no logic. Honestly though, Thats insane. Why would you even use that. No offence. Love serves a purpose, it will help us to go out and ## some girl and reproduce.
To his question to my post I respond: You can call the Creator a flying spagetti monster if you want. The point is, you have to acknowledge that the incredible and fantastic reality of the heavens (not to mention the detail workings of the earth) were created by a being that is more intelligent and supreme that us. If you have studied physics, you will realize that the odds of Earth’s ability to support like are statistically impossible. As the Bible states, the heavens declare His glory.
If we focus the conversation to outer space alone, and we understand the mouth-dropping science that is behind the function and beauty of just our own galaxy, we must concede that an intelligence greater than our own put it into existence. Logic — romance aside — supports this assumption.
The proof of something divine and intelligent beyond ourselves is found in all of these things and dozens of more real things.
And those are?
The fact that every civilization on the face of the Earth has the idea of God and worships God — that even the most oppressive regimes have not squashed the idea of God. That civilizations that have had no contact with other groups have ideas of a Creator — many of them with the same creation stories. It is evidence that there is a longing within us all to discover Him. This longing was placed in us by Him. And this thread/debate is evidence of that as well.
Religion was not invented by government. Faith, particularly the Christian faith, came under the persecution of the government. The calling on the hearts of the faithful was beyond human control. We know this because all of the authors of the New Testament but one were martyred. They did not die for “faith” in the abstract. They died because they saw Jesus die and said they saw Him rise. A lot of people would die for an idea. Not many would die for something they knew to be a lie.
The Creator loves you more than His own son. What freedom there is in receiving that love.
Remember, God will answer the questions you have if you go to Him in hope. But He cannot give answers to the proud. We are too busy interrupting Him.
He sure as hell fucked up trying to talk to me considering I relized he was not helping me. As I said, I used to be a hardcore christian.
First — God doesn’t make mistakes. Second, being hardcore religious and surrendering to Christ are two different things. A heart that has truly surrendered to Christ is never lost. And if indeed your heart ever belonged to Christ, He will woo you back like a Father who never quits loving his son. You cannot escape his love, brother. He will never leave you or forsake you. Never.
... until he sends you to hell to burn forever in pain and agony
Have y’all ever read the Case for a Creator or seen the videos out from the same group?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8372ks0raI
It takes a little patience, but there’s some very interesting scientific argument that a) God exists and b) He’s trying to get our attention. I think it’s rational enough to think that a Supreme Being may know how to reveal Himself better than we do. If God came down to every person in some miraculous way, it wouldn’t seem miraculous. It would be everyday because it would be happening every day.
Even if He appeared with a neon sign from outer space, we’d end up rationalizing it as Darwin evolution or nature in some way. It would be the same way we view the stars as everyday ho hum stuff now. When we look at the stars, what we’re actually seeing is a universe so complex and beautiful it is beyond our comprehension (we cannot imagine infinity). What more can speak to the awe of God but the stars? But the night sky is so commonplace to us that it does not strike us as a divine theater.
My point is this: ask God to lead you. But be open to where He leads you. He just may know best.
--- Theory does not mean an unsubstantiated guess or hunch, as it can in everyday speech. A theory is a logically self-consistent model or framework for describing the behavior of a related set of natural or social phenomena.
“If any man come to me and hate not his father and mother and wife and children and bretheren and sisters yea and his life also he cannot be my disciple”
:/
--- It Puts the Lotion on It’s Skin or Else it Gets the Hose Again...
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