Watchman. Don’t take any of this personally. I’m not saying that I’m 100% right, and I’m definetly not saying you are 100% wrong, but this IS a debate forum; and the objective of a debate is to win your point.
What happened was that you accidentally backed yourself into a corner when you only (and strongly) disagreed with my post about the lying children rather than the rest of my post as well. This left you open for “checkmate” because by not bringing up anything else that I stated in your rebuttal (which was more of a disagreement than an actual rebuttal) you essentially agreed with them by not trying to refute it, and in turn only left me with one argument to contend with (which I happen to have VERY strong evidence at the ready).
Again, not saying that you are all wrong. You just made a fatal mistake which cost you the debate.
to settle this, why dont you post what you said on the on,off forum and see the response...I could be wrong....as for your last post, why would i want to respond to soemthing that is so far off the topic. I told you, you began well but you began to drift ..checkmate...essentially agree...because I did not give you an answer.....lol! LOOK AT THE TOPIC.... i related my dicussion to the Law, and its priciple and neccesity, Its relevance to human history and society...I ask you about lying in relation to the 10 Cc and you try to justify lies, slavery. .hmphh...In the whole of human society from when to now, children are always encouraged that telling lies is wrong. But unfortunatly our society does indeed teach children that honesty isn’t always the best policy, even if we tell them that they should always tell the truth.....look in a nutshel I wonder if you ask any mother from any part of the earth, “your little boy/girl telling lies, is that proof of there intelligence”?, what their response would be.?
a) yes hes getting better now at telling them
b) I’m so proud of him/her
c) he’s teachers say that he’s improved significantly in spelling and maths.
regardless of what we personal believe does not change the study. I never said lying was a good thing, but it is still a sign of intelligence.
Correct sir, our debate is waaay off the topic of “Satan writing the bible”, but that is not my fault or yours specifically. It is the direction our personal debate took us, and we continued to pick up and drop topics until we finally came to where we are, and you slipped up a bit. “Our” debate was very much on topic in terms of it being our debate.
I only used slavery and lies as an example because you did. I was only talking about murder until you brought them up, so I stepped up to the challenge and told you how lies and slaves could be introduced and their relevance to early society. Early small societies is where we come from.
Did you read the link I posted? Yes, we tell our kids that lying is wrong, but we encourage them to lie constantly as well. “White Lies” are still lies. When I child tells a white lie, we commend them for being polite, but it is still lying. The study shows that also that punishment does NOT keep kids from lying... it instead makes them into better liars. I don’t care what the mothers of the world have to say, it is they that lead by example and the child mimics.
Just read the damn article please, so you don’t develop false ideas concerning what I am saying. If you do that we can happily continue talking about this in a productive manner.
“to settle this, why dont you post what you said on the on,off forum and see the response...I could be wrong...."
I’m not sure I know what you mean here...
What do mother’s opinions have to do with this? I bet if you asked slave owners back in the 1800’s if slavery was wrong you would get back the answer “No." Did the mothers do the studies?
ChibiDiscoDhaos wrote:
What do mother’s opinions have to do with this? I bet if you asked slave owners back in the 1800’s if slavery was wrong you would get back the answer “No." Did the mothers do the studies?
I would speak on that, but I’m going to keep quiet. I had something really funny to say.
ChibiDiscoDhaos wrote:
What do mother’s opinions have to do with this? I bet if you asked slave owners back in the 1800’s if slavery was wrong you would get back the answer “No." Did the mothers do the studies?
I would speak on that, but I’m going to keep quiet. I had something really funny to say.
ChibiDiscoDhaos wrote:
What do mother’s opinions have to do with this? I bet if you asked slave owners back in the 1800’s if slavery was wrong you would get back the answer “No." Did the mothers do the studies?
I would speak on that, but I’m going to keep quiet. I had something really funny to say.
Do it!
You want to know why the slave owner’s wives said that slavery wasn’t bad?
ChibiDiscoDhaos wrote:
What do mother’s opinions have to do with this? I bet if you asked slave owners back in the 1800’s if slavery was wrong you would get back the answer “No." Did the mothers do the studies?
I would speak on that, but I’m going to keep quiet. I had something really funny to say.
Do it!
You want to know why the slave owner’s wives said that slavery wasn’t bad?
Khorib wrote:
regardless of what we personal believe does not change the study. I never said lying was a good thing, but it is still a sign of intelligence.
Correct sir, our debate is waaay off the topic of “Satan writing the bible”, but that is not my fault or yours specifically. It is the direction our personal debate took us, and we continued to pick up and drop topics until we finally came to where we are, and you slipped up a bit. “Our” debate was very much on topic in terms of it being our debate.
I only used slavery and lies as an example because you did. I was only talking about murder until you brought them up, so I stepped up to the challenge and told you how lies and slaves could be introduced and their relevance to early society. Early small societies is where we come from.
Did you read the link I posted? Yes, we tell our kids that lying is wrong, but we encourage them to lie constantly as well. “White Lies” are still lies. When I child tells a white lie, we commend them for being polite, but it is still lying. The study shows that also that punishment does NOT keep kids from lying... it instead makes them into better liars. I don’t care what the mothers of the world have to say, it is they that lead by example and the child mimics.
Just read the damn article please, so you don’t develop false ideas concerning what I am saying. If you do that we can happily continue talking about this in a productive manner.
“to settle this, why dont you post what you said on the on,off forum and see the response...I could be wrong...."
I’m not sure I know what you mean here...
so since all human beings possess this ability to lie, where in all of history and culture scrolls, manusripts, do we find that it is not wrong to lie....Since without a pefect law given by a perfect being, identifing lying as wrong, nobody needs to feel obligated to have to tell the truth or feel bad when they lie...
ChibiDiscoDhaos wrote:
What do mother’s opinions have to do with this? I bet if you asked slave owners back in the 1800’s if slavery was wrong you would get back the answer “No." Did the mothers do the studies?
I would speak on that, but I’m going to keep quiet. I had something really funny to say.
Do it!
You want to know why the slave owner’s wives said that slavery wasn’t bad?
I want to know!
Just ask yourself why the wives always left the bed at night... lol
Khorib wrote:
regardless of what we personal believe does not change the study. I never said lying was a good thing, but it is still a sign of intelligence.
Correct sir, our debate is waaay off the topic of “Satan writing the bible”, but that is not my fault or yours specifically. It is the direction our personal debate took us, and we continued to pick up and drop topics until we finally came to where we are, and you slipped up a bit. “Our” debate was very much on topic in terms of it being our debate.
I only used slavery and lies as an example because you did. I was only talking about murder until you brought them up, so I stepped up to the challenge and told you how lies and slaves could be introduced and their relevance to early society. Early small societies is where we come from.
Did you read the link I posted? Yes, we tell our kids that lying is wrong, but we encourage them to lie constantly as well. “White Lies” are still lies. When I child tells a white lie, we commend them for being polite, but it is still lying. The study shows that also that punishment does NOT keep kids from lying... it instead makes them into better liars. I don’t care what the mothers of the world have to say, it is they that lead by example and the child mimics.
Just read the damn article please, so you don’t develop false ideas concerning what I am saying. If you do that we can happily continue talking about this in a productive manner.
“to settle this, why dont you post what you said on the on,off forum and see the response...I could be wrong...."
I’m not sure I know what you mean here...
so since all human beings possess this ability to lie, where in all of history and culture scrolls, manusripts, do we find that it is not wrong to lie....Since without a pefect law given by a perfect being, identifing lying as wrong, nobody needs to feel obligated to have to tell the truth or feel bad when they lie...
Khorib wrote:
regardless of what we personal believe does not change the study. I never said lying was a good thing, but it is still a sign of intelligence.
Correct sir, our debate is waaay off the topic of “Satan writing the bible”, but that is not my fault or yours specifically. It is the direction our personal debate took us, and we continued to pick up and drop topics until we finally came to where we are, and you slipped up a bit. “Our” debate was very much on topic in terms of it being our debate.
I only used slavery and lies as an example because you did. I was only talking about murder until you brought them up, so I stepped up to the challenge and told you how lies and slaves could be introduced and their relevance to early society. Early small societies is where we come from.
Did you read the link I posted? Yes, we tell our kids that lying is wrong, but we encourage them to lie constantly as well. “White Lies” are still lies. When I child tells a white lie, we commend them for being polite, but it is still lying. The study shows that also that punishment does NOT keep kids from lying... it instead makes them into better liars. I don’t care what the mothers of the world have to say, it is they that lead by example and the child mimics.
Just read the damn article please, so you don’t develop false ideas concerning what I am saying. If you do that we can happily continue talking about this in a productive manner.
“to settle this, why dont you post what you said on the on,off forum and see the response...I could be wrong...."
I’m not sure I know what you mean here...
so since all human beings possess this ability to lie, where in all of history and culture scrolls, manusripts, do we find that it is not wrong to lie....Since without a pefect law given by a perfect being, identifing lying as wrong, nobody needs to feel obligated to have to tell the truth or feel bad when they lie...
I already answered this in my previous posts...
“Lying: Now the thing about lying, is that it is a sign of intelligence in young children. The earlier they learn to lie (and I mean learn on their own) the smarter they generally are. This is because is it a way around the consequences of an action that wasn’t witnessed. “I didn’t do it” attempts deflect the blame off of yourself. A reason I can think of for this being a bad thing, is it can cause anger between people, causing feuds and possibly violence. Since no one likes being lied to. And lying makes it harder to find the person that “stole” from us, or the person that killed someone. To the pack, not being able to find this thief or murderer is a very bad thing, since he/she will probably continue to hurt the tribe from the inside."
and the posts following on the subject of lying...
I never said lying was “right”. I only pointed out that it is a natural part of a child’s development. Ugh, please don’t forget my past posts or we will go in circles...
SeekAndFind wrote:
The truth is that science has never disproved anything in the Bible. Science continually points to what is written in the Bible.
Give me a few examples.
Ok: Here are some examples of how the Bible, which came before modern scientific thought, is in line with hard fact scientific discovery and even some of the leading theories:
1) The order of Creation as told in Genesis (that is, the order in which God created things: light, creation of Earth, water expanse covering the Earth until land shaped up, creating creatures of the water, creating creatures of the land) is the same order that science believes they were created (big bang=creation of light; creation of Earth; large continent dividing into seven continents=water expanse covering earth until land shaped up; creation of sea creatures first; creation of land creatures second). It’s all the same order as modern day science would point us to. In the Bible, man is created last. So to in science. The Bible is finite in its wisdom. Nothing science proves as fact (not theory) contradicts it.
2) evidence of a large flood as told about in the story of Noah has been found by scientists
3) all of the historical events of the Bible — who reigned, who won the wars, etc. — are confirmed by independent historical and archaeology sources (different kind of science but same idea)
4) even the theory of relativity is alluded to in the Bible. To God a thousand years is like a day and a day is like a thousand years.
If you can look at the alignment of the planets, the spacial relationship between the Earth and the sun that makes it possible for human life (as well as the dozens of other necessary conditions for life), the fantastic beauty of nature, and the existence of love (which, in its purest form, serves no biological purpose because it causes you to sacrifice; quite counterintuitive to survival of fittest) — if you can look at all these things and see no evidence of a Creator then you’ve settled in for turning your back on logic.
If you can look at the same thing and say the Flying Spagetti Monster is not projecting it all into are minds then you have no logic. Honestly though, Thats insane. Why would you even use that. No offence. Love serves a purpose, it will help us to go out and ## some girl and reproduce.
To his question to my post I respond: You can call the Creator a flying spagetti monster if you want. The point is, you have to acknowledge that the incredible and fantastic reality of the heavens (not to mention the detail workings of the earth) were created by a being that is more intelligent and supreme that us. If you have studied physics, you will realize that the odds of Earth’s ability to support like are statistically impossible. As the Bible states, the heavens declare His glory.
If we focus the conversation to outer space alone, and we understand the mouth-dropping science that is behind the function and beauty of just our own galaxy, we must concede that an intelligence greater than our own put it into existence. Logic — romance aside — supports this assumption.
The proof of something divine and intelligent beyond ourselves is found in all of these things and dozens of more real things.
And those are?
The fact that every civilization on the face of the Earth has the idea of God and worships God — that even the most oppressive regimes have not squashed the idea of God. That civilizations that have had no contact with other groups have ideas of a Creator — many of them with the same creation stories. It is evidence that there is a longing within us all to discover Him. This longing was placed in us by Him. And this thread/debate is evidence of that as well.
Religion was not invented by government. Faith, particularly the Christian faith, came under the persecution of the government. The calling on the hearts of the faithful was beyond human control. We know this because all of the authors of the New Testament but one were martyred. They did not die for “faith” in the abstract. They died because they saw Jesus die and said they saw Him rise. A lot of people would die for an idea. Not many would die for something they knew to be a lie.
The Creator loves you more than His own son. What freedom there is in receiving that love.
Remember, God will answer the questions you have if you go to Him in hope. But He cannot give answers to the proud. We are too busy interrupting Him.
He sure as hell fucked up trying to talk to me considering I relized he was not helping me. As I said, I used to be a hardcore christian.
First — God doesn’t make mistakes. Second, being hardcore religious and surrendering to Christ are two different things. A heart that has truly surrendered to Christ is never lost. And if indeed your heart ever belonged to Christ, He will woo you back like a Father who never quits loving his son. You cannot escape his love, brother. He will never leave you or forsake you. Never.
Ok: Here are some examples of how the Bible, which came before modern scientific thought, is in line with hard fact scientific discovery and even some of the leading theories:
1) The order of Creation as told in Genesis (that is, the order in which God created things: light, creation of Earth, water expanse covering the Earth until land shaped up, creating creatures of the water, creating creatures of the land) is the same order that science believes they were created (big bang=creation of light; creation of Earth; large continent dividing into seven continents=water expanse covering earth until land shaped up; creation of sea creatures first; creation of land creatures second). It’s all the same order as modern day science would point us to. In the Bible, man is created last. So to in science. The Bible is finite in its wisdom. Nothing science proves as fact (not theory) contradicts it.
Doesn’t prove the creation story still..Sorry.
2) evidence of a large flood as told about in the story of Noah has been found by scientists
Nope. If your thinking global flood it has already been disproven
3) all of the historical events of the Bible — who reigned, who won the wars, etc. — are confirmed by independent historical and archaeology sources (different kind of science but same idea)
And this proves?
4) even the theory of relativity is alluded to in the Bible. To God a thousand years is like a day and a day is like a thousand years.
How is this relativity?
To his question to my post I respond: You can call the Creator a flying spagetti monster if you want. The point is, you have to acknowledge that the incredible and fantastic reality of the heavens (not to mention the detail workings of the earth) were created by a being that is more intelligent and supreme that us. If you have studied physics, you will realize that the odds of Earth’s ability to support like are statistically impossible. As the Bible states, the heavens declare His glory.
And where did you get this info at? Seriously, probability is one of the most horrific arguments out there because it is just an attempt to make a god seem more probably. Tell me what are the odds of there being something infinitly intelligent,infinitly powerful, in every single place at once, and aware of every fabric of the universe in the past present and future?
If we focus the conversation to outer space alone, and we understand the mouth-dropping science that is behind the function and beauty of just our own galaxy, we must concede that an intelligence greater than our own put it into existence. Logic — romance aside — supports this assumption.
No...Just no. I guess the beauty of rocks logically supports the assumption that a rock creating god put rocks in to existance.
The fact that every civilization on the face of the Earth has the idea of God and worships God — that even the most oppressive regimes have not squashed the idea of God. That civilizations that have had no contact with other groups have ideas of a Creator — many of them with the same creation stories. It is evidence that there is a longing within us all to discover Him.
Or maybe it’s evidence of us wanting to feel important.
This longing was placed in us by Him. And this thread/debate is evidence of that as well.
How so?
Religion was not invented by government. Faith, particularly the Christian faith, came under the persecution of the government. The calling on the hearts of the faithful was beyond human control. We know this because all of the authors of the New Testament but one were martyred. They did not die for “faith” in the abstract. They died because they saw Jesus die and said they saw Him rise. A lot of people would die for an idea. Not many would die for something they knew to be a lie.
This is simply not true. We have seen people who have had a chance to confess to certian things and didn’t even under torture.
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Last edited 29 Jun 2008 10:12 pm by ChibiDiscoDhaos
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I had something really funny to say.