Itachi Uchiha wrote:
What an idiot. Respect all beliefs, I will not respect ALL beliefs. You are a fool to think this.
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I WILL NOT RESPECT YOU...
You wont respect anyone who believes in the truth.
--- Theory does not mean an unsubstantiated guess or hunch, as it can in everyday speech. A theory is a logically self-consistent model or framework for describing the behavior of a related set of natural or social phenomena.
Sean of the Living wrote:
No matter how you phrase your statement you will aways annoy somebody... its just that people here seem to be extremely touchy if you criticize something they believe..
And you’re not?
Explain, I get offended when people say that I hate a group of people or hate a person, wtf, just wtf....
--- Theory does not mean an unsubstantiated guess or hunch, as it can in everyday speech. A theory is a logically self-consistent model or framework for describing the behavior of a related set of natural or social phenomena.
All beliefs should be respected ****************** 70%
(votes so far 7)
Beliefs should only be respected when justified ******** 30%
(you voted for this, votes so far 3)
wow, 7 people are willing to respect the kkk, scientology, and anyother criminal organization, just so that their religious belief will be respected as well. Can I please here the sane people opinion on this...
--- Theory does not mean an unsubstantiated guess or hunch, as it can in everyday speech. A theory is a logically self-consistent model or framework for describing the behavior of a related set of natural or social phenomena.
Gplex, you’ve asked this respect question many times before. And although I like interesting conversations, it really doesn’t seem to be going anywhere.
What are you asking exactly? Why people get angry when you criticize certain beliefs?
Well why not?
Why would people get angry if you made fun of differently-abled people? Or my dead cat?
Religion only requires more respect from those who get offended by your criticisms. That said, why should they agree with your view that religion does not desereve respect when it is something important to them?
The reason why religion holds such high regard in the “taboo” section of criticism is the level of importance it has to so many people.
Everything is not equal, people are not robots or perfectly rational beings. We hold different values for different things both individually and culturally. People simply don’t get offended the same way when you question their favorite color versus questioning their intelligence.
Society changes; sometimes what is considered offensive by most no longer is, and sometimes what was considered the norm is now no longer accepted. But my question is, with all your “rationalizing”, why is it that you seem to feel that your view trumps all this? That somehow, everyone is stupid who thinks religions should be respected (and the term religion also has specific meaning for people...believe it or not most people do not lump the KKK in with this).
You act as though people have no right to criticize that you feel you have every right to criticize all religions.
There’s no solving this loop, what are you trying to prove?
treeplanter wrote:
You’re poll is leading (by the way).
Gplex, you’ve asked this respect question many times before. And although I like interesting conversations, it really doesn’t seem to be going anywhere.
What are you asking exactly? Why people get angry when you criticize certain beliefs?
Well why not?
Why would people get angry if you made fun of differently-abled people? Or my dead cat?
Religion only requires more respect from those who get offended by your criticisms. That said, why should they agree with your view that religion does not desereve respect when it is something important to them?
The reason why religion holds such high regard in the “taboo” section of criticism is the level of importance it has to so many people.
Everything is not equal, people are not robots or perfectly rational beings. We hold different values for different things both individually and culturally. People simply don’t get offended the same way when you question their favorite color versus questioning their intelligence.
Society changes; sometimes what is considered offensive by most no longer is, and sometimes what was considered the norm is now no longer accepted. But my question is, with all your “rationalizing”, why is it that you seem to feel that your view trumps all this? That somehow, everyone is stupid who thinks religions should be respected (and the term religion also has specific meaning for people...believe it or not most people do not lump the KKK in with this).
You act as though people have no right to criticize that you feel you have every right to criticize all religions.
There’s no solving this loop, what are you trying to prove?
Itachi Uchiha wrote:
You wont respect anyone who believes in the truth.
— — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — —
You dont respect why should I respect you...???
Because you don’t respect anyone elses belifs. Why should they respect you? You also make stupid points that can never be proven, nor do you ever back up statements. You are also always in denial when you lose an argument (all the time
treeplanter wrote:
You’re poll is leading (by the way).
Gplex, you’ve asked this respect question many times before. And although I like interesting conversations, it really doesn’t seem to be going anywhere.
What are you asking exactly? Why people get angry when you criticize certain beliefs?
Well why not?
Why would people get angry if you made fun of differently-abled people? Or my dead cat?
Religion only requires more respect from those who get offended by your criticisms. That said, why should they agree with your view that religion does not desereve respect when it is something important to them?
The reason why religion holds such high regard in the “taboo” section of criticism is the level of importance it has to so many people.
Everything is not equal, people are not robots or perfectly rational beings. We hold different values for different things both individually and culturally. People simply don’t get offended the same way when you question their favorite color versus questioning their intelligence.
Society changes; sometimes what is considered offensive by most no longer is, and sometimes what was considered the norm is now no longer accepted. But my question is, with all your “rationalizing”, why is it that you seem to feel that your view trumps all this? That somehow, everyone is stupid who thinks religions should be respected (and the term religion also has specific meaning for people...believe it or not most people do not lump the KKK in with this).
You act as though people have no right to criticize that you feel you have every right to criticize all religions.
There’s no solving this loop, what are you trying to prove?
Wtw. “You act as though people have no right to criticize that you feel”.. Me!!! my whole argument is about how religious people act this way, and you are trying to turn it on me???
Your argument is total bs. You dont mention anything about these people who think ALL beliefs should be respected. Yes they said all beliefs, no matter how many times I bring up the kkk, they still say it, which means they want to respect the kkk, and so my argument is justified on that area....
My belief that all belief should not be respected is justifiy, something that no one here that actually tryed to argue their points disagrees on.
Trying to compare someone who is “differently-abled” (dont be so pc its just stupid - we can debate on that on some other thread) to someone who believes in a invisable sky daddy who will do anything for them but hasnt, is not the same. A disable person can not help there position, a dead cat can not help its position, you can not compare the 2, and bringing something like that up shows how bias you are to your side of the argument.
--- Theory does not mean an unsubstantiated guess or hunch, as it can in everyday speech. A theory is a logically self-consistent model or framework for describing the behavior of a related set of natural or social phenomena.
Itachi Uchiha wrote:
You wont respect anyone who believes in the truth.
— — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — —
You dont respect why should I respect you...???
Because you don’t respect anyone elses belifs. Why should they respect you? You also make stupid points that can never be proven, nor do you ever back up statements. You are also always in denial when you lose an argument (all the time
... beaten to the punch...
--- Theory does not mean an unsubstantiated guess or hunch, as it can in everyday speech. A theory is a logically self-consistent model or framework for describing the behavior of a related set of natural or social phenomena.
treeplanter wrote:
You’re poll is leading (by the way).
Gplex, you’ve asked this respect question many times before. And although I like interesting conversations, it really doesn’t seem to be going anywhere.
What are you asking exactly? Why people get angry when you criticize certain beliefs?
Well why not?
Why would people get angry if you made fun of differently-abled people? Or my dead cat?
Religion only requires more respect from those who get offended by your criticisms. That said, why should they agree with your view that religion does not desereve respect when it is something important to them?
The reason why religion holds such high regard in the “taboo” section of criticism is the level of importance it has to so many people.
Everything is not equal, people are not robots or perfectly rational beings. We hold different values for different things both individually and culturally. People simply don’t get offended the same way when you question their favorite color versus questioning their intelligence.
Society changes; sometimes what is considered offensive by most no longer is, and sometimes what was considered the norm is now no longer accepted. But my question is, with all your “rationalizing”, why is it that you seem to feel that your view trumps all this? That somehow, everyone is stupid who thinks religions should be respected (and the term religion also has specific meaning for people...believe it or not most people do not lump the KKK in with this).
You act as though people have no right to criticize that you feel you have every right to criticize all religions.
There’s no solving this loop, what are you trying to prove?
Wtw. “You act as though people have no right to criticize that you feel”.. Me!!! my whole argument is about how religious people act this way, and you are trying to turn it on me???
Your argument is total bs. You dont mention anything about these people who think ALL beliefs should be respected. Yes they said all beliefs, no matter how many times I bring up the kkk, they still say it, which means they want to respect the kkk, and so my argument is justified on that area....
My belief that all belief should not be respected is justifiy, something that no one here that actually tryed to argue their points disagrees on.
Trying to compare someone who is “differently-abled” (dont be so pc its just stupid - we can debate on that on some other thread) to someone who believes in a invisable sky daddy who will do anything for them but hasnt, is not the same. A disable person can not help there position, a dead cat can not help its position, you can not compare the 2, and bringing something like that up shows how bias you are to your side of the argument.
Oh, well, I’m sorry you feel that way. I didn’t think my argument was BS at all, I actually thought I brought up some pretty good points. Also, it’s too bad you thought I was being stupid. Believe it or not, the term ‘differently-abled’ is common to me and I don’t think there’s anything stupid about it at all. And I’m not sure what type of bias you’re referring to, other then the one that defines who I am and what I believe. Everyone is bias.
My “turning it on you” was just showing that:
1) you argue that you people should not get upset when you criticize religions
2) you get upset when people criticize this view
Do you see what I’m getting at? Do you understand?
I guess I should have made more clear my point about “all religions”. You must understand that people interpret your question differently. You ask a question like that, framed in a way you understand with your own inherent bias…and then get mad when people answer in a way you don’t like and can’t “prove” their position to you. But it’s because you’re thinking of the question differently.
We’ve had discussions on what classifies religion, and as it turns out, it really isn’t cut and dry. People have different interpretations of what religion is, or what they will consider religion as do various political entities.
So your question isn’t very cut and dry either. What I was trying to point out was that you believe the KKK is included in “religions” while others do not. So when you accuse people of believing that the KKK should be respected, you’re accusing falsely. They may never have considered the KKK as part of your question in the first place.
Now, it might also be that this is the internet (serious business) and people simply haven’t chosen to take time out of their day to contemplate this question the way you and I have. Oh well, it happens.
Also, people’s opinions on this matter are probably not as bilateral as you make it out to be. So framing the question in such simple terms is not a good reflection of how people actually feel. You can’t take away the shades of grey in an issue just because you feel like it.
So you didn’t like my comparisons, so we’ll just scrap them then.
Instead, lets consider the belief in unicorns. If you made fun of people who believed in unicorns on this site, you probably wouldn’t get much backlash, in fact, I’m sure many people would join in. This is because not very many people do believe in unicorns, but yes, there is the chance that someone could take great offense to this and get very angry at you. Now, you make fun of Christianity on this site and you’ll get a great deal more backlash. This is because many people do believe in Christianity. Now, that point simply proves, that no matter what, you are probably always going to offend someone somewhere but to what degree depends on the subject.. So yes, you can criticize religion, but please, for goodness sake, don’t expect people to agree with you or put up with it. You get so angry because you feel you’ve got the right answers. Well whoop-de-do. The world is full of people with the right answers, a lot of them different from yours.
Oh I apologize Gplex, I wrote that response not realizing that the question in your poll read “all beliefs” not “all religions”.
Everything I said still stands however, just because I think there probably has been misinterpretation of “belief”. Most people know you as a religion debater and probably made that conclusion about the question. Look at me, I’m a self-confessed example.
That being said, I guess you’re poll is too broad to be discussed/debated properly. Beliefs of what? Anything in the world? Respect from who? What type of respect? I dunno, there’s just too much interpretation in that question.
But, if you want a quasi-answer....
Respect is an individual choice, however there are certain societal norms which lend some beliefs to “require” more respect then others and if that respect is not given one can expect a reaction accordingly.
Haha, so that’s not really a personal opinion I suppose, so much as a statement which I think is true.
Oh ok, I thought of something. My personal take:
I believe that consumerism is bad ((simplified view)). Now, there are millions upon millions of people who disagree with that, and some that would be very angry that I even have that view. Indeed, I’ve had very little success in engaging people in what I consider a meaningful way on the forum about consumerism, poverty, corporations or the like.
But when I get a negative reaction to this view I don’t automatically feel that these people are stupid or wrong. I understand that although we might not agree on this subject, there may be other things which we do. I don’t choose to define this person by this one belief because I understand that they are a person, with a head, eyes, nose and mouth, emotions, good days and bad days and a whole life of their own. I even try to look at their side of the situation, try to understand why they believe what they do.
Now, if this person does something that is totally against my values I may be angry at them, we may argue. If we are so completely different that we simply cannot understand each other. Then I let it go. I may not like what they believe, I may not even like them as a person. But I understand that they came from somewhere, that there’s reason behind who they are.
It doesn’t mean I’ll stop believing what I believe, and it doesn’t mean that I’ll start to agree with them. My idea of respect is simply understanding that people are aloud to be different. The world is so interesting because of these differences, whether we think they cultivate good or bad results.
In the end, I just live the life I think is best. I’ll argue for my beliefs and I’ll act on them because I think that’s the best way for me to live. I try not to get to angry with those who disagree with me, if fact, I’ve probably learned the most from those who did. Just keeping an open mind and expecting that I may change what I believe helps me have a lot more respect for others and their believes.
A belief does not need to justify itself for me to respect it. Not only that, but it is the person I respect, not the belief. “Beliefs” don’t exist beyond people believing in them. Therefore, there is a correlation between respect for the person and respect for the belief.
Sorry it’s all so long, but like I said, it’s not a simple question.
Honestly, I don’t believe anyone’s beliefs innately deserve respect. Nor, obviously, do you have to agree with them. What it basically comes down to is tolerance. They are going to believe whatever it is they believe, profound or absurd, regardless of what you think.
Khorib wrote:
Honestly, I don’t believe anyone’s beliefs innately deserve respect. Nor, obviously, do you have to agree with them. What it basically comes down to is tolerance. They are going to believe whatever it is they believe, profound or absurd, regardless of what you think.
I agree. I just think the world is a little better with a bit more acceptance and respect in it. That’s my choice.
treeplanter, you seem to be making a few strawman arguments against me.
treeplanter wrote:
feel that these people are stupid or wrong
I feel someone is stupid or wrong, is when the ignore everything I say about how we are not directly releated to monkeys, and just fall back to “I dont believe we came from monkeys” argument, that pisses me off. I feel someone is stupid or wrong, when they ignore everything I say and make strawman arguments, I feel that right now all these people say that every belief should be respected is stupid or wrong, and no one seems to be willing to stand up and say that.
treeplanter wrote:
In the end, I just live the life I think is best. I’ll argue for my beliefs and I’ll act on them because I think that’s the best way for me to live.
Exactly! so wouldnt you want your beliefs as true as possible? Alot of people here do not believe that their beliefs should be as true as possible.
treeplanter wrote:
A belief does not need to justify itself for me to respect it.
Im sorry this is pretty silly. If I had a white friend who believe that the cause of the nazi where true and just, I would loose respect for him very very quickly.
treeplanter wrote:
Respect is an individual choice, however there are certain societal norms which lend some beliefs to “require” more respect then others and if that respect is not given one can expect a reaction accordingly.
It was the societal norm to enslave black people, it was the same for burning “witches” it was the same for leaching - just because it is the norm in society, doesnt mean its right.
treeplanter wrote:
That being said, I guess you’re poll is too broad to be discussed/debated properly. Beliefs of what? Anything in the world? Respect from who? What type of respect? I dunno, there’s just too much interpretation in that question.
There is no broad discussion, its belief, all belief. Beliefs inform you actions - as I quoted you earlier which you seem to agree with - and because of this, I believe all belief should be justify before being accepted/respected.
treeplanter wrote:
My “turning it on you” was just showing that:
1) you argue that you people should not get upset when you criticize religions
2) you get upset when people criticize this view
thats your belief which you have not justified. I get up set when people say Im getting upset because they disagree with me, Im not getting annoyed because of that, Im getting annoyed because they refute my arguments with nothing but what they believe. It very annoying, and it seems religion has made this type of argument which does lead to know where because they other side is not relying on logic.
treeplanter wrote:
Instead, lets consider the belief in unicorns. If you made fun of people who believed in unicorns on this site, you probably wouldn’t get much backlash, in fact, I’m sure many people would join in. This is because not very many people do believe in unicorns, but yes, there is the chance that someone could take great offense to this and get very angry at you. Now, you make fun of Christianity on this site and you’ll get a great deal more backlash. This is because many people do believe in Christianity.
Might does not make right, just because less people believe in it doesnt mean it gets pushed down the ladder to less respect as christianity, both have just as much evidence for each belief.
treeplanter wrote:
So yes, you can criticize religion, but please, for goodness sake, don’t expect people to agree with you or put up with it. You get so angry because you feel you’ve got the right answers. Well whoop-de-do. The world is full of people with the right answers, a lot of them different from yours.
I dont have answers I have everlasting questions, but what I do have is alot of facts, and people dont like them, you have open you eyes in this forum and actually looked... well you made a assumption first then looked but still, did you not catch yourself in a moment of irrationality? look into your own thoughts a little more and see what you find, I continue to find some irrational beliefs every now and then....
--- Theory does not mean an unsubstantiated guess or hunch, as it can in everyday speech. A theory is a logically self-consistent model or framework for describing the behavior of a related set of natural or social phenomena.
Gplex wrote:
OMG jimmy is a jew! who gives a fuck? he can be whatever the hell he wants to be.
I give a shit if his beliefs are true, you would do if you where a true friend.
Okay, this was on another thread, but it’s relevant to this topic. Gplex, I can’t believe you said if your best friend was Jew you’d “help him out” by critisizing his beliefs... if you can do that, then you shouldn’t be annoyed if you had a Christian best friend who tried to “help you out” by telling you that your beliefs are fucking bullshit, that Atheism is evil, that you are an idiot, that you are a Satan worshipper and that you deserve to be placed in a lake of fire to suffer from immense pain for all eternity. Would it be acceptable if it were true according to him? After all, he’s only trying to “help you out”.
Does that sound like a best friend to you? Or even a nice, respectable person?
Last edited 01 May 2008 02:37 am by Sean of the Living
Gplex wrote:
OMG jimmy is a jew! who gives a fuck? he can be whatever the hell he wants to be.
I give a shit if his beliefs are true, you would do if you where a true friend.
Okay, this was on another thread, but it’s relevant to this topic. Gplex, I can’t believe you said if your best friend was Jew you’d “help him out” by critisizing his beliefs... if you can do that, then you shouldn’t be annoyed if you had a Christian best friend who tried to “help you out” by telling you that your beliefs are fucking bullshit, that Atheism is evil, that you are an idiot, that you are a Satan worshipper and that you deserve to be placed in a lake of fire to suffer from immense pain for all eternity. Would it be acceptable if it were true according to him? After all, he’s only trying to “help you out”.
Does that sound like a best friend to you? Or even a nice, respectable person?
Best friend would if I actual was evil, a satan worshipper, that deserve to be placed in a lake of fire.
But your problem is, I am not evil, and I am not a satan worshiper, but if I was addictted to drugs, a good friend would help me out point out how far down Ive fallen, or if I was moping over a x, I good friend would tell me how childish Im acting, etc etc.
--- Theory does not mean an unsubstantiated guess or hunch, as it can in everyday speech. A theory is a logically self-consistent model or framework for describing the behavior of a related set of natural or social phenomena.
Khorib wrote:
Honestly, I don’t believe anyone’s beliefs innately deserve respect. Nor, obviously, do you have to agree with them. What it basically comes down to is tolerance. They are going to believe whatever it is they believe, profound or absurd, regardless of what you think.
I agree. I just think the world is a little better with a bit more acceptance and respect in it. That’s my choice.
Well if you can accept the kkk, the nazis, and any other stupid belief system, then you really haven thought out the consequences to accepting these beliefs.
--- Theory does not mean an unsubstantiated guess or hunch, as it can in everyday speech. A theory is a logically self-consistent model or framework for describing the behavior of a related set of natural or social phenomena.
wow EdwardCurrent just made a video on this topic.
--- Theory does not mean an unsubstantiated guess or hunch, as it can in everyday speech. A theory is a logically self-consistent model or framework for describing the behavior of a related set of natural or social phenomena.
Sean of the Living wrote:
It’s not just that Gplex, you pick on beliefs because you think they’re stupid, not because they’re bad or evil. There’s a difference between critisizing someone who believes something stupid and someone who believes something evil and, more importantly, acts out on those actions.
Well I think he also wants to help our spieces out. I mean if everyone on earth believed like they did 2000 years ago, society is hurt in the long run.
Yes but who knows what horrid morals may develop in the future. I think we need to keep at least a few of them even if it’s just the most basic ones just to keep society stable.
You think people 2000 years ago have better morals then us???!? are you kidding.
--- Theory does not mean an unsubstantiated guess or hunch, as it can in everyday speech. A theory is a logically self-consistent model or framework for describing the behavior of a related set of natural or social phenomena.
Sean of the Living wrote:
It’s not just that Gplex, you pick on beliefs because you think they’re stupid, not because they’re bad or evil. There’s a difference between critisizing someone who believes something stupid and someone who believes something evil and, more importantly, acts out on those actions.
Well I think he also wants to help our spieces out. I mean if everyone on earth believed like they did 2000 years ago, society is hurt in the long run.
Yes but who knows what horrid morals may develop in the future. I think we need to keep at least a few of them even if it’s just the most basic ones just to keep society stable.
You think people 2000 years ago have better morals then us???!? are you kidding.
They wern’t any better for the time. It’s hard to compare different time era’s morals to today’s standards.
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» Why religion/belief deserves respect, more then anything else.
