Khorib wrote:
I’m fairly certain I understood exactly what you said and meant, unless you accidentally worded it wrong. Regardless, you still haven’t provided me with an example of an act you can purposefully commit that is completely selfless.
I gave you everything you needed to work on. If you don’t understand then you don’t understand. Sometimes you just need to learn things on your own. If you have never done anything that you get nothing out of, not even a good feeling then you won’t understand.
Or.......... you are just being avoidant. The whole point is to discuss the topic. I have done things that made me feel quite crappy, but I did it because not doing it was worse. That was what I got out of it... being able to avoid a worse alternative, or one that would make me feel even shittier.
How old are you? It’s just a matter of experience. You probably haven’t experienced what I have yet.
Avoiding? Here’s what you should ask yourself. Are you doing things to avoid that feeling or are doing it because others are getting something out of it. There a instance when infact you feel worse than how you would have felt if you had not done it. The point in a discussion is to learn. I can give you direct answers and you won’t understand them. Thinking needs to be involved. That’s why some people don’t tell you everything. You have to figure things out for yourself.
I’m not going to pretend I’ve been through what a person in their 50’s has, I’ve lived half of that. Age, however, doesn’t always mean experience. I do not know how old you are, but that doesn’t matter. I don’t assume that I have been through more than you have, but you shouldn’t assume the same of me. This is why I’m asking for an example. Rather than say “you wouldn’t understand..." why don’t you try me. You’re right, this is so WE can learn, and you are not helping me by brushing me aside.
If you want to put a word to it, you’re talking about altruism.
A couple years ago I remember listening to a speaker on the radio talk about this very thing, which got me thinking as well.
I think the problem with the idea that there are no altruistic acts is by what we classify as a “benefit” or self-serving.
Good feelings are one thing...what about satisfactory feelings? Or like you mentioned...feelings of, “well, the alternative is worse”, but really, being fine with either one.
I mention this stuff because altruism is fine as a theory, and ok, maybe almost no one has been “truly” selfless. But the idea of selflessness is a human concept and thus we get to define it. Humans in general have classified what is selfless or not and depending on your culture there are different ways this will be viewed.
Anyway, what I mean is that it’s all fine and dandy to say that no one can truly be altruistic...but then so what? Where does that actually lead you?
Of course its all speculative. I don’t mean it to be incorporated into an actual philosophy to live by. I just think its an interesting idea when you step back and compare it to everything and see how true it is. That’s all. You’re right, it will probably change absolutely nothing, but I think it helps avoid hypocrisy in some cases. It just something to be aware of is all.
Khorib wrote:
I’m fairly certain I understood exactly what you said and meant, unless you accidentally worded it wrong. Regardless, you still haven’t provided me with an example of an act you can purposefully commit that is completely selfless.
I gave you everything you needed to work on. If you don’t understand then you don’t understand. Sometimes you just need to learn things on your own. If you have never done anything that you get nothing out of, not even a good feeling then you won’t understand.
Or.......... you are just being avoidant. The whole point is to discuss the topic. I have done things that made me feel quite crappy, but I did it because not doing it was worse. That was what I got out of it... being able to avoid a worse alternative, or one that would make me feel even shittier.
How old are you? It’s just a matter of experience. You probably haven’t experienced what I have yet.
Avoiding? Here’s what you should ask yourself. Are you doing things to avoid that feeling or are doing it because others are getting something out of it. There a instance when infact you feel worse than how you would have felt if you had not done it. The point in a discussion is to learn. I can give you direct answers and you won’t understand them. Thinking needs to be involved. That’s why some people don’t tell you everything. You have to figure things out for yourself.
I’m not going to pretend I’ve been through what a person in their 50’s has, I’ve lived half of that. Age, however, doesn’t always mean experience. I do not know how old you are, but that doesn’t matter. I don’t assume that I have been through more than you have, but you shouldn’t assume the same of me. This is why I’m asking for an example. Rather than say “you wouldn’t understand..." why don’t you try me. You’re right, this is so WE can learn, and you are not helping me by brushing me aside.
I never said you experienced less than me. People’s experiences differ. You have probably experienced things I haven’t but I have probably experienced things you haven’t. It’s better to hint at the answer and let you do the problem solving. That’s why old fart bags always give out encrypted messages. You have to figure it out. Just take the time to think about it and think about what I may have experienced or why I may have done something.
I asked you a question in my last post to you. Don’t ignore. Look it over and answer it. You don’t need to give me the answer. Just answer it for yourself. Then ask yourself what other answers people would give. Not everybody does something to get that beneficial feeling.
Hey I’m somewhat new here, and I wasn’t sure which forum this would fit best in. Since it is somewhat of a “life outlook”, I plopped it in the religion section. My apologies.
If you want to put a word to it, you’re talking about altruism.
A couple years ago I remember listening to a speaker on the radio talk about this very thing, which got me thinking as well.
I think the problem with the idea that there are no altruistic acts is by what we classify as a “benefit” or self-serving.
Good feelings are one thing...what about satisfactory feelings? Or like you mentioned...feelings of, “well, the alternative is worse”, but really, being fine with either one.
I mention this stuff because altruism is fine as a theory, and ok, maybe almost no one has been “truly” selfless. But the idea of selflessness is a human concept and thus we get to define it. Humans in general have classified what is selfless or not and depending on your culture there are different ways this will be viewed.
Anyway, what I mean is that it’s all fine and dandy to say that no one can truly be altruistic...but then so what? Where does that actually lead you?
Of course its all speculative. I don’t mean it to be incorporated into an actual philosophy to live by. I just think its an interesting idea when you step back and compare it to everything and see how true it is. That’s all. You’re right, it will probably change absolutely nothing, but I think it helps avoid hypocrisy in some cases. It just something to be aware of is all.
Hypocrisy and contradiction are different words. I just have a feeling you’re mixing them up.
Of course, depending on how you look at it, it is contradictory. It can’t really be changed. That’s how life is.
Khorib wrote:
Hey I’m somewhat new here, and I wasn’t sure which forum this would fit best in. Since it is somewhat of a “life outlook”, I plopped it in the religion section. My apologies.
There’s no need for apologies. Everyone makes mistakes. It’s basically apart of life. No one is perfect.
Online Predator: “Are you doing things to avoid that feeling or are doing it because others are getting something out of it."
I assume you mean this one. The truth is that I do both, naturally. It depends on the situation and what I’m doing of course, but for instance:
If someone asks a favor, I may do it because I want to help them sure. After analyzing it though and looking back, there are several underlying subconscious reasons that I would help that person. There are a number a small things that I benefit from.
Back when I lived at home though, if my parents told me to clean my room, then I would do it to avoid punishment.
There isn’t anything really contradictory about it. I really need you to point it out. You aren’t being cryptic, you just aren’t communicating anything but your disagreement.
That is being cryptic. That question was meant as a way to get you to understand.
You are in a way right about altruism but then in a way you’re wrong. I can find contradictions everywhere in life but the contradictions work. They aren’t necessarily a bad thing or take away from something.
Altruism is a contradiction of selflessness in a way. It’s wrong but in a way right. It’s partially a perspective but still somewhat true.
As for your answer. That is what you can say about yourself. Not that you’re a bad person. But others will have different answers.
That’s something to look at. Why would they have different answers?
Of course! Everyone will definetly have different answer to why they do certain things. And I was never suggesting it was good or bad, so I think we are at least on the same page. And sure, it is a matter of perception, however I think that when many people act on certain actions, the omit the “self” that is still involved in that action.
I’ll clarify, I am not always conscious of the selfish aspect of my actions. I definetly have to look outside the usual path of thinking to find the contradictions in what I thought was a selfless act.
So... The question is, “Is there really such thing as a perfect altruist?"
I would just like to say, that you can gain something from an action and the action can still be “selfless”.
I submit to you that the man who pushes someone out of the way of a bus for the glory and gratitude of saving a life, is not committing a selfless act. But the man who performs the same action, simply for the sake of the endangered person’s life, is indeed committing a selfless act. But neither man is necessarily an altruist, though he has committed an altruistic act. I do indeed hope that made sense.
--- Not dead that which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons death may die.
- H. P. LovecraftJoin the Order
lol We’ve always been on the same page. I just make it hard for people to figure it out. I find joy in it when people do finally realize things without me giving them the entire answer. It means they actually know what they’re talking about.
About omission, I can say that for some but some people can die for people they hate and won’t get anything out of it because they’re dead. They get their goal but that’s nothing that helps them in the least. Only that they’re goal is fulfilled. I think most people have do get something out of most situations and actions they choose to do or at least in some way want to but that isn’t their driving force to do something. In fact, some may even ignore it and not do something based on it. They still get it but they didn’t do it for that.
One would argue that that person living is more important to him at that moment than his own life, and is therefore benefiting. I don’t believe that anyone can purposefully commit a completely altruistic act.
Online Predator wrote:
lol We’ve always been on the same page. I just make it hard for people to figure it out. I find joy in it when people do finally realize things without me giving them the entire answer. It means they actually know what they’re talking about.
About omission, I can say that for some but some people can die for people they hate and won’t get anything out of it because they’re dead. They get their goal but that’s nothing that helps them in the least. Only that they’re goal is fulfilled. I think most people have do get something out of most situations and actions they choose to do or at least in some way want to but that isn’t their driving force to do something. In fact, some may even ignore it and not do something based on it. They still get it but they didn’t do it for that.
I’ll agree with that, I don’t believe it has to be a conscious driving force, but I believe most of the selfishness lies within the subconscious to justify doing things we don’t want to do or wouldn’t normally do.
Khorib wrote:
One would argue that that person living is more important to him at that moment than his own life, and is therefore benefiting. I don’t believe that anyone can purposefully commit a completely altruistic act.
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Religion
» There is no such thing as a Completely Selfless act
