Khorib wrote:
*Waits to see what Watchman says next*
Why bother? He almost reminds me of Itachi. Though I can understand him, we don’t know what he’s talking about, or he just doesn’t make any sense at all.
Khorib wrote:
Nope, I will gladly admit that I haven’t read the bible cover to cover. However, if all christians have read is the bible cover to cover (assuming they even did that), then they are STILL embarrassingly ill-informed. There is a lot of history about the origins, and translation of the holy books that many simply dismiss as unimportant...
I understand what you mean...but you have to understand as well that what is within the bible, gives men an understanding of certain things concerning the world they live in....sometimes what may seem like uninterest and ill-finformed may be just that but other times it may be that those tit bits of information dont compare to the actual contents WITHIN...let’s be honest a little bit...is not customary amongst yourselves to say that Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...ne?
Now since you have yet to read the Book, how do you know for yourself what it has to say.....I challenge this with people and its funny...If I say you cant do 100 pressups, or jog a bit further, or cant work so hard, people are challenged and to do something about it...you challenge people to read something as simple as the Bible ,they have every excuse under the sun..........to be aquainted with something you easily criticise by reading gives you some merit....as it is , I find hard to acknowledge your criticisms.....
Khorib wrote:
Nope, I will gladly admit that I haven’t read the bible cover to cover. However, if all christians have read is the bible cover to cover (assuming they even did that), then they are STILL embarrassingly ill-informed. There is a lot of history about the origins, and translation of the holy books that many simply dismiss as unimportant...
I understand what you mean...but you have to understand as well that what is within the bible, gives men an understanding of certain things concerning the world they live in....sometimes what may seem like uninterest and ill-finformed may be just that but other times it may be that those tit bits of information dont compare to the actual contents WITHIN...let’s be honest a little bit...is not customary amongst yourselves to say that Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...ne?
It is called “HOPE”, plain and simple... Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, absolutely. I’ll even say that the bible is a fine piece of literature, but I see nothing divine about it. It is truly the mind of man that gives that book any power or divine presence.
I think the problem is that there are many people that NEED to know there is some purpose for them, and that they are taking care of in someway. These people avoid acknowledging contradictions because they cannot make it through the day without the HOPE the something better is waiting for them. Religion gives people this hope in and organized and stable/unchanging package the doesn’t require them to ask many question on their own.
Watchman wrote:
Now since you have yet to read the Book, how do you know for yourself what it has to say.....I challenge this with people and its funny...If I say you cant do 100 pressups, or jog a bit further, or cant work so hard, people are challenged and to do something about it...you challenge people to read something as simple as the Bible ,they have every excuse under the sun..........to be aquainted with something you easily criticise by reading gives you some merit....as it is , I find hard to acknowledge your criticisms.....
I don’t need to make up an excuse, I’ll tell you the truth... I find it boring. Now I’m not a stranger to big books, but it could just not hold my interest on the many occasions that I have tried to sit and read it cover to cover. And I continually wonder after every passage I read what the writer meant when he first wrote it. I then end up spending much of my time researching its history rather than reading the bible word for word. I would say that I have read/heard enough of the stories in the bible to get a fairly good idea since I can’t imagine what other info I’m lacking that may change my incite on the bible...
I’ll admit, however, that it can be considered unfair of me to criticize the bible as I have while I can’t honestly say I’ve read every word of it. Again, I believe I’ve gotten a clear picture of the bible’s message, but I would have to leave that up to scholars to decide if I’ve gotten the correct idea.
hope huh....there is element that is invested in hope in the Christian Bible....But this hope is not man coming to some glorious ending. Neither is it in man achieving or accomplishing some thing great.....the hope is in something that is in the mind of almost all men, who love life, and all that goes with it....the hope to escape death, the ultimate vacuum cleaner....nothing in existence has escaped this thing except for a person calling Himself 1st and Last. It is the description of this event, the person accomplishing, and the implications and results from this so profound a thing, that gives men...hope...Can such a hope be imitated ~?
Watchman wrote:
hope huh....there is element that is invested in hope in the Christian Bible....But this hope is not man coming to some glorious ending. Neither is it in man achieving or accomplishing some thing great.....the hope is in something that is in the mind of almost all men, who love life, and all that goes with it....the hope to escape death, the ultimate vacuum cleaner....nothing in existence has escaped this thing except for a person calling Himself 1st and Last. It is the description of this event, the person accomplishing, and the implications and results from this so profound a thing, that gives men...hope...Can such a hope be imitated ~?
I’m still trying to make sense of this one. Gimme a minute.. or post something more coherent.
Do you mean the same hope as those many that follow the Qur’an? Or how about the Norse warriors that thought that they would get to sit at the long table in Valhalla and feast with the Gods if they died honorably in combat?
Watchman’s last post appears reminiscent of a doomsday evangelist on the street corner.
“Neither is it in man achieving or accomplishing some thing great.....the hope is in something that is in the mind of almost all men, who love life, and all that goes with it....the hope to escape death, the ultimate vacuum cleaner....nothing in existence has escaped this thing except for a person calling Himself 1st and Last."
How do you know this First and Last dude escaped death? It’s appears to be circular reasoning. I’m not condemning, just questioning.
Khorib wrote:
Do you mean the same hope as those many that follow the Qur’an? Or how about the Norse warriors that thought that they would get to sit at the long table in Valhalla and feast with the Gods if they died honorably in combat?
Thats why there is the need for reading yourself....the TRUTH is not something abstract, but kind of experiencial..its not like you invent hope as you read it...no, its more like its infused into you, something more organic....
It only give you hope if you believe it. I would hardly say hope is infused in you upon reading it. Remember, Dawkin’s book wasn’t about whether there is or isn’t a God.. thats why his point on whether God exists was so lacking/disappointing... He’s is aware that you cannot disprove an idea like God. His book is about making the point that we don’t NEED a god, and that there is no reason for one.
Khorib wrote:
Do you mean the same hope as those many that follow the Qur’an? Or how about the Norse warriors that thought that they would get to sit at the long table in Valhalla and feast with the Gods if they died honorably in combat?
I’m still waiting on Allah to send me scores of virgins myself. I can’t wait to spend months on first base with each of them so I can finally score with the scores of lovely celestial virgins!
(Mental Note - “Score with the Scores” would be a really cool band name.)
Oranje wrote:
Not as if Khorib needs to know The Good Book cover to cover. He’s saying if/when he asks a believer a question regarding it they are ill-informed.
This can be the result of many things. They can be misreading a passage. Oblivious to the answer. Twisting the answer to what suits them.
Having grown up in a VERY religious bacground, I find the biggest turn-off can be hypocrisy which happened often in my expeirence.
Perhaps more on this later if the debate leads to that point.
Dude, somebody can only be defined as ll informed if the same person has read or is well versed in the said item...If I ask you about japanese language, you would expect me to have some knowledge on the said subject ...ne?
"Dude, somebody can only be defined as ll informed if the same person has read or is well versed in the said item...If I ask you about japanese language, you would expect me to have some knowledge on the said subject ...ne?"
Logical fallacy written all over it. If you asked a Japanese/English teacher who couldn’t translate phrases for you, they would be ill-informed.
Oranje wrote:
Not as if Khorib needs to know The Good Book cover to cover. He’s saying if/when he asks a believer a question regarding it they are ill-informed.
This can be the result of many things. They can be misreading a passage. Oblivious to the answer. Twisting the answer to what suits them.
Having grown up in a VERY religious bacground, I find the biggest turn-off can be hypocrisy which happened often in my expeirence.
Perhaps more on this later if the debate leads to that point.
Dude, somebody can only be defined as ll informed if the same person has read or is well versed in the said item...If I ask you about japanese language, you would expect me to have some knowledge on the said subject ...ne?
I think Oranje on this post was saying that, in the example of Japanese, you don’t need to fluently speak Japanese to know or understand its origins and history.
Oranje wrote:
Watchman’s last post appears reminiscent of a doomsday evangelist on the street corner.
“Neither is it in man achieving or accomplishing some thing great.....the hope is in something that is in the mind of almost all men, who love life, and all that goes with it....the hope to escape death, the ultimate vacuum cleaner....nothing in existence has escaped this thing except for a person calling Himself 1st and Last."
How do you know this First and Last dude escaped death? It’s appears to be circular reasoning. I’m not condemning, just questioning.
as to your question, it relates to your experience....many have found to their delight that when they believe, they recieve this person who went through the death...its beyond their concept because He is supposed to be dead but their He is, at the beginning and at certain times in their lives and situations He displays Himself...Now I am not talking about the deadness of religion, where if you eat something (or dont eat something), go to a particular city , wear particular clothing, do certain things like charity...this is something different. And let me say it again...all religions have been dealt the death blow (judged)...
Oranje wrote:
Not as if Khorib needs to know The Good Book cover to cover. He’s saying if/when he asks a believer a question regarding it they are ill-informed.
This can be the result of many things. They can be misreading a passage. Oblivious to the answer. Twisting the answer to what suits them.
Having grown up in a VERY religious bacground, I find the biggest turn-off can be hypocrisy which happened often in my expeirence.
Perhaps more on this later if the debate leads to that point.
Dude, somebody can only be defined as ll informed if the same person has read or is well versed in the said item...If I ask you about japanese language, you would expect me to have some knowledge on the said subject ...ne?
I think Oranje on this post was saying that, in the example of Japanese, you don’t need to fluently speak Japanese to know or understand its origins and history.
yes...ithink he got the point but wastrying not to say it.....
"as to your question, it relates to your experience....many have found to their delight that when they believe, they recieve this person who went through the death...its beyond their concept because He is supposed to be dead but their He is, at the beginning and at certain times in their lives and situations He displays Himself...Now I am not talking about the deadness of religion, where if you eat something (or dont eat something), go to a particular city , wear particular clothing, do certain things like charity...this is something different. And let me say it again...all religions have been dealt the death blow (judged)..."
Am I to understand that you are saying 'He' only exists (if at all) in any one person’s mind due to their expeirence?
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Religion
» "The God Delusion" By Richard Dawkins
