Zack vs Cloud

AC Seph >>>>>> Crisis Core Seph
Therefor,
Cloud >>>>>> Zack

It’s also safe to assume VII Cloud > Zack.

no no no no no... you are so wrong, ff7 cloud is a noob hes really only just started using the buster sword... at the beginning of ff7 hes on his first mercenary mission with avalanche, stealing zacks idea of being a mercenary... but, its still the first mission.. which means hes only just got to midgar after trekking from zacks body to the city. so that means he wouldnt have that much skill or experience yet...

When I say VII Cloud, I mean by the end.

Buster Sword wrote: When I say VII Cloud, I mean by the end.

Yeah. Hey, why don’t we put AC Cloud up against Zack as a baby!
Zack doesn’t have much experience with a sword then, Cloud wins.

ladies please.

I like Cloud.

I like Zack.

But to think Cloud is on par with Zack isn’t fair. Cloud couldn’t make the grade to be first class. Zack was an exceptional first class. Cloud became stronger after the testing was done on him by hojo. The same testing was done on Zack, only he died before the results got to sink in. Ergo, had Zack been allowed to live, he would absolutely be stronger. Now, some of you are still going to say “but he didn’t live, yadda yadda yadda yadda”, it’s stupid. If you’re trying to find out which one was the stronger fighter, Zack was. Bar none.

Anyone who argues that Cloud beat Sephiroth in FFVII...well, next time you play FFVII, just die when you get to the final battle, and that argument won’t work anymore...

So why did Zack die if he was so strong? Because if he didn’t, then FFVII wouldn’t make very much sense as a story, would it?? Sheeze.

Quit arguing semantics, and just look at the logic behind everything. Zack is better than Cloud.

Pokemon wrote: ladies please.

I like Cloud.

I like Zack.

But to think Cloud is on par with Zack isn’t fair. Cloud couldn’t make the grade to be first class. Zack was an exceptional first class. Cloud became stronger after the testing was done on him by hojo. The same testing was done on Zack, only he died before the results got to sink in. Ergo, had Zack been allowed to live, he would absolutely be stronger. Now, some of you are still going to say “but he didn’t live, yadda yadda yadda yadda”, it’s stupid. If you’re trying to find out which one was the stronger fighter, Zack was. Bar none.

Anyone who argues that Cloud beat Sephiroth in FFVII...well, next time you play FFVII, just die when you get to the final battle, and that argument won’t work anymore...

So why did Zack die if he was so strong? Because if he didn’t, then FFVII wouldn’t make very much sense as a story, would it?? Sheeze.

Quit arguing semantics, and just look at the logic behind everything. Zack is better than Cloud.

Cloud canonically beats Sephiroth. Twice. Also in AC and VII, Cloud is way stronger than Zack, testing or not.

Here’s what you are telling me....

1. Cloud beat Sephy in VII.

In VII, Cloud beat Sephy with all his little pals, and guess what. At no point was that based on his shear fighting ability. I don’t know about you, but I won that fight with a buttload of materia. Materia doesn’t make you a stronger fighter. If it did, hell, it would mean I’m a better fighter that Bruce Lee 'cause I can summon KoTR.

2. So then Cloud fights Sephy 1 on 1

That fight was all in Cloud’s head. Come on, right after you take him out, Cloud comes too and he’s still right there with the rest of the party.

3. Cloud beat Sephy in AC

No he didn’t. Sephy is already dead. He beat Kadaj, a pitiful “Remnant” of Sephiroth. If he truly beat Sephiroth then, then why does Sephy smile down at Cloud afterwards and casually say “i’ll never be just a memory”, and then revert back to Kadaj....oh yeah, 'cause it’s not actually Sephy.

Zack is the stronger fighter.

It make’s perfect sence a warrior who trained for year’s attained the highest rank could fight brilliantly without a sword and invented the Omni-Slash is better than Cloud.

You cant use Sephiroth as an example of Cloud’s might as Cloud wasnt even close to Seph’s level of skill neither were but Zack still beat Zero Bahamut and Minerva Genesis and so on and won this prove’s him over Cloud if anything douse.

“It’s Ironic how life is an endless pursuit of dream’s and yet we only find that dream in the eternal rest that awaits at the end of our journey through life..."

ladies please.

I like Cloud.

I like Zack.

So do I, but that has nothing to do with why I think Cloud would beat Zack.

But to think Cloud is on par with Zack isn’t fair. Cloud couldn’t make the grade to be first class. Zack was an exceptional first class. Cloud became stronger after the testing was done on him by hojo. The same testing was done on Zack, only he died before the results got to sink in. Ergo, had Zack been allowed to live, he would absolutely be stronger. Now, some of you are still going to say “but he didn’t live, yadda yadda yadda yadda”, it’s stupid. If you’re trying to find out which one was the stronger fighter, Zack was. Bar none.

To think Zack is on par with Cloud isn’t fair, actually. You know why? Because using the excuse of him not making it to soldier has nothing to do with his abilities throughout VII and AC. He didn’t get into soldier not because he was weak, but because he wasn’t right in the head. It doesn’t matter what Class Zack was, Avalanche members were beating soldiers by the end of VII (Raid of Midgar). Zack had the same experiments as Cloud, Zack actually had the mako augmentations twice, as he’s in soldier he has the augmentations before, Cloud had it during those five years, more importantly the BOTH had the SAME treatment. Cloud has always had hidden potential, as seen in the 1st and 3rd time he beats Sephiroth. And Zack didn’t die before the results sunk in, he was a failure not because the experiment was wrong, but because he could resist Jenova’s influence etc. The experiment reacted with Cloud, and that is why he’s the true success. You can’t actually say Zack would have been stronger, how do you know Zack wasn’t at his peak? If he can’t overpower a human Sephiroth then there’s no chance in him standing against a demi god one. Of course we can say he’s dead, if he’s so much better than Cloud why is he dead? Zack couldn’t handle Sephiroth’s weakest form, so yes Zack IS less powerful than Cloud.

Anyone who argues that Cloud beat Sephiroth in FFVII...well, next time you play FFVII, just die when you get to the final battle, and that argument won’t work anymore...

What is that supposed to mean? You can’t die in that battle, Cloud is supposed to pwn Sephiroth because it’s a part of the story.

So why did Zack die if he was so strong? Because if he didn’t, then FFVII wouldn’t make very much sense as a story, would it?? Sheeze.

So first you’re saying Cloud beats Sephiroth because of a plot device? And you’re using Zack dying as another example of a plot device? Actually EVERTHING are plot devices because they are supposed to go a certain way, but just because it’s a plot device doesn’t take away the fact that it happened. You can’t say VII wouldn’t make much sense if Zack lived, fact is he would have NEVER beaten Sephiroth is he was alive, he’s not Cloud. And you can’t use the fact that Zack died as a basis for him being stronger, because it makes no sense.

Quit arguing semantics, and just look at the logic behind everything. Zack is better than Cloud.

Then why did he get pwnd by Sephiroth’s weakest form? That isn’t semantic, that’s FACT.

It make’s perfect sence a warrior who trained for year’s attained the highest rank could fight brilliantly without a sword and invented the Omni-Slash is better than Cloud.

No it doesn’t because Sephiroth loses to Cloud THREE times and he was the best, so saying Zack is a “perfect” soldier is redundant. Doesn’t matter what and how he can fight, he loses to the weakest Sephy, end of.
How many slashes is Zack’s omnislash. And Zack didn’t invent AC omnislash that’s for definate.

You cant use Sephiroth as an example of Cloud’s might as Cloud wasnt even close to Seph’s level of skill neither were but Zack still beat Zero Bahamut and Minerva Genesis and so on and won this prove’s him over Cloud if anything douse.

What the fuck are you trying to say here? I can’t use Cloud’s greatest feats but you can use Zacks? What’s the point in debating if you’re going to reject the fact that Zack lost to a HUMAN Sephiroth, whilst Cloud beats the super powerful one. And actually there’s no proof that Sephiroth’s skill is way beyond Cloud’s because they go it out blow for blow in the falling debris. Sephiroth IS more powerful than Cloud, but that’s the whole point why he’s better than Zack, one: he fights a being more powerful than Zack fought, and two: Cloud wins.
Sephiroth > Bahamut, Genesis and Minvera.
You can deny it if you want, because I’m kinda giving up telling you that nobody in VII is more powerful than Sephiroth.

the solo fight between cloud and sephy in VII was not a real fight. It was absolutely all in Cloud’s head. That was to show Cloud finally coming to grip’s with himself.

Cloud didn’t make it into 1st Class soldier because he wasn’t strong enough. He was weak minded, but the actual schizo behavior didn’t come about til later.

When did avalanche fight Soldier’s during the raid on Midgar? I don’t remember that. BUT! Let’s go ahead and say, “sure, they did”. All of your arguments between Zack and Cloud rest on their performances against other people. So, by you’re logic...since Avalanche supposedly “beat SOLDIER’s” in the raid on midgar, but, they couldn’t beat Reno on top of the pillar....or any other time mind you...that must mean Reno is stronger than SOLDIER’s!

Hell, Cloud couldn’t beat Palmer, but a semi ran over him! That truck driver must be stronger than Cloud!

the solo fight between cloud and sephy in VII was not a real fight. It was absolutely all in Cloud’s head. That was to show Cloud finally coming to grip’s with himself.

It was a sprirtual battle with a Sephiroth who was far from dead. You forget that Sephiroth’s will is more powerful than anyones in VII.

When did avalanche fight Soldier’s during the raid on Midgar? I don’t remember that. BUT! Let’s go ahead and say,

Use your sense materia xD

All of your arguments between Zack and Cloud rest on their performances against other people.

So Zack and Cloud never fought Sephiroth? Have you completly missed that one out? Actually I’m using the basis of beings they fight as a good indicator of their stregth, Cloud pulls through against more powerful beings, I don’t see Zack fighting in mid-air whilst riding a bike when fighting two remnants who are more powerful than any avalance member bar Cloud and Chaos.

So, by you’re logic...since Avalanche supposedly “beat SOLDIER’s” in the raid on midgar, but, they couldn’t beat Reno on top of the pillar....or any other time mind you...that must mean Reno is stronger than SOLDIER’s!

There’s a difference, Reno and co ran away. And that is at the start of the game where the power difference between avalanche and the turks aren’t that great, you forget the other encounters where Rude got hurt really bad. Did I say Reno is stronger than 1st class soldiers, the fact is he didn’t beat avalanche, he ran away, so that makes your point redundant.

Hell, Cloud couldn’t beat Palmer, but a semi ran over him! That truck driver must be stronger than Cloud!

Palmer ran away. Palmer is supposed to get hit by a truck. I suppose Cait Sith would beat Sephiroth too if you augmented him, because backwards your logic and that is what you’re trying to say.

You are forgetting the simple fact that Zack LOST to Sephiroth, if he was more powerful than Cloud then he would have lasted longer than he did against the weakest Sephiroth form.

ran away my ass. they fight the turks about 3 or 5 times....they couldn’t seal the deal any of those times.

the point is it doesn’t matter how they size up against a common foe (sephiroth), that has nothing to do with their abilities or how they would do against each other.

zack is the stronger fighter.

ran away my ass. they fight the turks about 3 or 5 times....they couldn’t seal the deal any of those times.

So the Turks didn’t run away then? Where did they go? What happened to Rude? Why couldn’t Reno and Rude even touch Cloud on AC? Why did they get pwned by Kadaj?

the point is it doesn’t matter how they size up against a common foe (sephiroth), that has nothing to do with their abilities or how they would do against each other.

Erm Yes it does. So if you lift a tonne of bricks, and I lift 2 tonnes of toilet roll, you’re stronger?
Their fights show their feats and abilites, how could we even have this discussion if it wasn’t for the people they battled against?

zack is the stronger fighter.

You say that with no porof. I tell you what Cloud goes up against but you brush if off with “Zack is better."
Prove that he’s stronger.

“Their fights show their feats and abilities, how could we even have this discussion if it wasn’t for the people they battled against”

Cloud got his ass whooped by Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo. He had to be saved by Vincent.

But then Cloud, beat Sephiroth.

So, are you saying that Sephiroth would have lost to Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo?

In all honesty Zack is more experianced and made the tech Cloud stole without Zack Cloud was a dead man for deffinate he saved his ass all the way to Migar takeing on a whole army near enough.

He fought Genesis who could hold out against Sephiroth and beat him he fought Bahamut AND Zero Bahamut witch pwn’s Sin without a doubt.

Minerva is the Godess of Gaia she is on the sam level as sephiroth she can control Gaia she banished Genesis from joining the LifeStream, but Zack beat her.

Zack could punch the crap out of Cloud in martial Art’s and could fight with the Buster Sword like a pro he beat a whole army of Shinra troop’s armed with Gun’s sword’s rocket’s and grenade’s and also had air surport to save Cloud he was by no mean’s weak.

him passing his exam proove’s he is better than Cloud at least mentaly and just as strong pysicaly.

Finaly a whole team fought Seph at the end of VII and in the Lfe Stream Seph had 100 HP left when Cloud delivered the final blow he never fought him he used Omni-Slash instantly to win.

in AC he figh’s Cloud without useing any materia just pysicaly without even trying cus he wanted to torture Cloud not kill him so here is the question, what make’s you think Seph tried any harder against Cloud than Zack in AC???

“It’s Ironic how life is an endless pursuit of dream’s and yet we only find that dream in the eternal rest that awaits at the end of our journey through life..."

Cloud got his ass whooped by Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo. He had to be saved by Vincent.

But then Cloud, beat Sephiroth.

So, are you saying that Sephiroth would have lost to Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo?

Are you forgetting that Cloud had Geostigma and the unwillingness to fight because of guilt?

Did Cloud have any of these things when fighting Sephiroth?

In all honesty Zack is more experianced and made the tech Cloud stole without Zack Cloud was a dead man for deffinate he saved his ass all the way to Migar takeing on a whole army near enough.

Why is he more experienced?
Cloud didn’t steal his move, he took his persona, and again how many slices was Zack’s omnislash?
It doesn’t matter if Zack saved Cloud’s ass back in the day, that’s not a reason for Zack being more powerful. I suppose Yuffie is more powerful than Vincent because he saved his ass from Rosso, and Vincent is more powerful because he saved Cloud’s ass from Kadaj and co. The fact is that isn’t true. The whole army isn’t Sephiroth, because he still lost to a base Sephiroth.

He fought Genesis who could hold out against Sephiroth and beat him he fought Bahamut AND Zero Bahamut witch pwn’s Sin without a doubt.

Genesis is NOT on Sephiroth’s level, so don’t compare Genesis to Sephiroth. Zero may pwn Shin, but Sephiroth pwns both of them, so that argument falls on it’s ass.

Minerva is the Godess of Gaia she is on the sam level as sephiroth she can control Gaia she banished Genesis from joining the LifeStream, but Zack beat her.

Then why did SE say that Sephiroth is the most powerful if Minivera is on the same level as him? Either SE are lying or you are. Minivera didn’t create her own lifestream, create her own disease, didn’t will her body back into existance. If Minivera is on the same level as AC Sephiroth, why did Zack lose to a base Sephiroth then?

Zack could punch the crap out of Cloud in martial Art’s and could fight with the Buster Sword like a pro he beat a whole army of Shinra troop’s armed with Gun’s sword’s rocket’s and grenade’s and also had air surport to save Cloud he was by no mean’s weak.

Why is Cloud not gonna have his sword? I don’t care what Zack can do with his fists, this is a fight with preferred weapons, and that is swords, so Zack’s martial arts skills mean fuck all.
When did I say Zack was weak? I just said he’s not as strong as Cloud.

him passing his exam proove’s he is better than Cloud at least mentaly and just as strong pysicaly.

Cloud isn’t mentally weak anymore...play VII and watch AC much? and he’s ont as strong physically either.

Finaly a whole team fought Seph at the end of VII and in the Lfe Stream Seph had 100 HP left when Cloud delivered the final blow he never fought him he used Omni-Slash instantly to win.

And we have our winner, using game mechanics in a debate. We don’t use game mechanics because by your logic Cait Sith could pwn Sephiroth. Actually that fight just wasn’t a one hit wonder from Cloud, it says somewhere in SE material they were fighting, but Cloud omnislashed his ass. I like how you down play Cloud lol.

in AC he figh’s Cloud without useing any materia just pysicaly without even trying cus he wanted to torture Cloud not kill him so here is the question, what make’s you think Seph tried any harder against Cloud than Zack in AC???

Sephiroth DOESN’T need materia in AC because he has his own Gaia, what happens when you condense the lifestream and further condense it? It couldn’t turn to materia could it?
Oh way to go about missing the whole point of Cloud also fighting without materia. And here we go again, the bull which you have illuded yourself with Sephiroth not trying. Give me direct proof that Sephiroth wasn’t trying from the creators mouth, oh wait...you can’t. As I’ve said countless times Sephiroth anc Cloud were “fighting ferociously” and the quote about Sephiroth using full powered attacks, why would Sephiroth use full power attacks if he wasn’t trying. Then you’re going to say “omfg Sefiros didn’t sweat” REALITY check, Sephiroth is not bound by human physiology, THAT is why he shows no signs of fatigue, or blink or sweat, nothing to do with his efforts in battle. Go on and porve me wrong if you can other than YOU saying Sephiroth wasn’t trying. And for Sephiroth to completly destroy Cloud in everyway possible he HAD to wear and tear him down, so no instapwn for Sephiroth, or anybody else in VII fighting Cloud.
Actually I could argue that Sephiroth tried harder against Cloud, you know why? Because they have a history, Sephiroth’s main purpose in AC was to destroy Cloud for the two previous defeats. Now why would you not give effort into someone who’s pwned you twice. AND Sephiroth didn’t lose because he was “playing/wasn’t trying” but because of his arrogance.

Good day to you sir.

http://allfinalfantasy-info.blogspot.com/2007/10/minerva-final-fantasy-vii-crisis-core.html

Dude Minerva was the Cetra that binded Jeanova, she is the strongest one the Godess of Gaia itself she banished Genesis from joining the life stream in the same way as Jeanova the same thing Cloud and Co had trouble with Zack beat her...

Create her own Gaia she is Gaia do you see her forming herself in and out of the Life Stream?

The only reason Zack lost to Sephiroth is he failed to ue Omni-Slash apart from that he is above Cloud in vertualy every way.

http://uk.faqs.ign.com/articles/698/698416p1.html

It’s said that Cloud was outmatched when it came to the fight with Sephiroth.
Sorry everybody who thinks that Cloud was almost on par with him: he wasn’t.
Even worse for Cloud, Nomura said that Sephiroth didn’t sweat during the
entire fight and never exerted himself. In other words, he wasn’t even trying
hard. Cloud on the other hand was clearly giving it his all and was described
by the book as exhausted by the time the battle was nearing its conclusion.

Cloud stood no chance are you happy...

Nojima said that Vincent has to be dragged into something before he’ll take
action, and that if it wasn’t for the other members of Avalanche being his
friends, he probably wouldn’t have joined the fight against Bahamut Sin.

This explain’s Vincent’s dislike for fighting Sin Bahamut and Sephiroth.

Vincent’s revelation to Cloud in the Sleeping Forest that he had never tried
to forgive himself for the things he had blamed himself for was one of the
major factors that caused Cloud to realize what he needed to do.

Vincent is Cloud’s inspiration to regain his will to fight.

“It’s Ironic how life is an endless pursuit of dream’s and yet we only find that dream in the eternal rest that awaits at the end of our journey through life..."

First, you say that Cloud has geostigma and an unwillingnesss to fight. Yes, he had those same problems fighting Sephiroth on AC. He still beat him. But guess what. THOSE ARE PROBLEMS! They make him weaker. They may not be fair, but Zack doesn’t have them.

Secondly, you guys keep saying SE says Sephiroth is the best. I agree with that. But if Sephiroth is the best, how did Cloud beat him? Just cause Cloud beats someone doesn’t mean he is better than them.

I have a feeling that if SE came out and said “Yes, Zack is stronger than Cloud”, that you guys would still be arguing the point.

Alot of Sephiroth and Cloud fan’s use the basis that Cloud beat Sephiroth as proof he is 2nd ranked witut considering how he won, or that Seph is first ranked without any basis of him showing to be the strongest.

“It’s Ironic how life is an endless pursuit of dream’s and yet we only find that dream in the eternal rest that awaits at the end of our journey through life..."